When you think of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, you likely have an image in your head from one of the famous artistic depictions of them over the centuries.
And whether that’s a 16th-century fresco by Michelangelo, a 1940 Warner Sallman painting of Christ that adorns the walls of grandmothers' houses everywhere (you know the one), or the nativity scene at your local church, they tend to have a common theme: everyone is as pale as fresh fallen snow.
In the Western world, Jesus, Mary, and Joseph are quite frequently depicted as white/caucasian. Sometimes these depictions are quite extreme: lily-white skin, blonde hair, blue eyes.
But many historians and theologians say that the real Jesus, Mary, and Joseph looked much different than the artistic depictions to come out of Europe and America would lead one to believe.
Was Jesus White?
The Bible gives us very little information about the physical appearances of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. The gospels paint a portrait of Jesus as an average-looking person, a simple Jewish man from Bethlehem. In fact, in Matthew 26, when Jesus was arrested in the garden of Gethsemane, Judas had to signal to the guards which man was actually Jesus.
Jesus likely looked like any other man from that particular time and place… which means he was probably brown-skinned. “He would have looked like a Palestinian Jewish man of the first century. He would have looked like a Jewish Galilean,” says Robert Cargill, University of Iowa assistant professor of classics and religious studies.
Scholars and artists have tried to (literally) paint a more accurate picture of what Jesus probably looked like.
In 2001, the BBC teamed up with renowned forensic anthropologist Richard Neave to reconstruct the face of a first-century Jewish skull. The result? A face that looks very different from traditional depictions of Jesus in art:
More recently, a Dutch artist named Bas Uterwijk (who goes by 'Ganbrood' on Instagram) came up with his own rendering of what Jesus could have looked like:
Obviously, these versions of Jesus are a far cry from the fair-skinned depictions that became the de facto image of Christ in the Western world.
Whitewashing Faith?
The same can be said for Joseph and the Virgin Mary, who critics claim are just as frequently whitewashed in everything from ancient paintings to modern pop culture.
Earlier this year, a viral TikTok video from user @hollyfae_art sought to dispel the notion that Mary was a white woman – instead painting her as a poor nomad with henna-dyed fingertips, a tribal pattern dress, and a deep tan.
We recently posted the two versions side by side on Facebook for comparison:
Again, a far cry from the thousands of paintings of her with pale skin and glamorous silken robes.
Joseph of Nazareth
It seems pretty likely that Jesus, Mary, and Joseph weren’t nearly as light-skinned as we've been led to believe, given the time and place in which they lived.
Interestingly, another controversial historical detail is the true age of Joseph. While sometimes depicted as a younger man, some of the most famous Saint Joseph paintings have shown him to be much older.
Theologian scholars say this elder Joseph was actually the result of an intentional campaign by the church to reinforce Mary's status as a virgin and fend off accusations that Jesus was conceived through natural means. The older Joseph was painted, the less likely the two would have shared a romantic relationship (or so the church's thinking went).
God's Image
And just for good measure, here is an artist's rendition of what Jesus's father, God, could look like:
What are we to make of these accusations of whitewashing?
One can also understand how those painting Jesus may have wanted to see something of themselves and their culture in their depictions of their lord and savior. With that in mind, it makes sense that an Italian painter might paint Jesus as remarkably European, for example.
Do you think it’s important that we view Jesus, Mary, and Joseph in a more realistic manner? Or, considering these very paintings are the way millions first saw Christ, is it okay to continue whitewashing?
227 comments
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Elizabeth D'Onofrio Halladay
So many comments that I actually got bored reading them all. Why are they so different? The comments. I can only say that anyone can find their truth anywhere. Even online. No matter if it is good or evil. Translated by saying Love or Hate. I choose love. Of course, Jesus was not blonde and blue-eyed. He was a man that looked just like all the other men and women he was surrounded by. My son is half Turkish and half Italian. He looks just like the AI picture above from the Shroud. He is caucasian but has olive skin far different from my white Italian skin from Northern Italy. I grew up with a Mother who prayed to the Virgin Mary and a Father who chose atheism. You can only imagine how confused the three of us were growing up. We went to Catholic School for about 4 years before my parent's got divorced and the Priest from the Catholic Church visited her one day and told her that if she did get a divorce we couldn't keep going to Catholic School. My mom was so upset that the church she followed so lovingly was kicking her out. Then there was Dad, who showed us a book on Human Evolution. No Adam and Eve, no rib, etc. Also since he was a man that studied history on his own through reading, suggested that Mary may have been raped by German Soldiers or Goths. They had to cover it up. It really doesn't matter to me how Jesus was conceived because he was brought up like any other during those times. He didn't even get to the height of his spirituality until he was in his 30's. Not walking through the desert alone but studying the teachings of people he met on his desert journey. Well anyway, that is what I have come to believe as I remain spiritual at 65. I also believe the combination of History, Science and Spiritualism has made me a better person that believes in a higher power but not the creation of one. Jesus spoke the truth of what he learned from meeting others in all walks of life and his spirituality. Not sure if I believe that he had risen from the dead, but also not counting anything out since we now know that those UFO's do exist. The latest TV show, Jesus of Nazareth is lovely and soothing to the soul. I like feeling that way so I do what I can for others and try to give Love and Light to everyone the Good and Evil, the lovers and the haters.
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Paul Johnson
This is so foolish even to consider. What will you do if you knew exactly what color his skin was? I guess many would use it to boost their EGO (pride) and give more room for the Serpant to operate as he did in the garden Gen 3:1. It seems as though we can't keep from being motivated to follow the enemy rather than following God. No different than Adam and Eve just wanting to be like GOD. So I guess the enemy will continue to come up with more things to distract us from really putting our total trust in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. I wonder did Jesus really mean what He said when He said I never knew you would come to pass, only time will tell.
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Orval Lessig
I believe Jesus to be every color to everyone. He is the truth, light, and the way for all. Mortal body and flesh return to the dust from which it sprang, but the soul is eternal.
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Paul Johnson
I'm not so sure that this is the case. Just like the flood did it really destroy the whole earths inhabitants are was it just the people in the immediate area where the people created by GOD. It seems like He was upset that He even created man over and over. Did this involve those people who were created on the sixth day by His spoken Word and then He created Adam from the earth, and made Him in His image. Something to think about or to consider. Are how about the Serpsnt with Adam and Eve was it a pear in the tree are a pair on the ground and why I ask, It clearly states that the first bor (Cain)was of the devil.
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William Anthony O'seland
We have been saying this exact thing for decades in my Cherokee/White household. It is physically impossible for it to be any other way.
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TheSound.com
Our Master Teacher and Savior was not even called "Jesus" when he was here alive in human form.
Jesus, which is the name used by most English-speaking people today, is an English transliteration of a Germanic adaptation, of a Latin transliteration, of a Greek transliteration of an originally Hebrew name, that is simply Yeshua (also spelled Y'shua).
Yeshua means salvation.
In Luke 1, the archangel Gabriel tells Mary (or Miriam) to name her son Yeshua, meaning “salvation.” An angel also tells Joseph, “you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” (Matt 1:21-22) Much like other Hebrew names, it was His calling and destiny from the beginning.
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Shanna Elizabeth Holloway
Am I the only one that where it says artist rendition of God is a picture of Morgan Freeman? Lol
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Michael Jerome Johnson
It’s high time we take the whiteness out of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, in my opinion.
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Paul Johnson
Why does it always have to be Black or white this is so stupid. Pride once again in control. There are not as many white colored skin people as there are of the other color skin. And yet it is the white color skin that is always to be blamed because of nothing else but PRIDE.
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Michael Orlo Davis
Again my thoughts are not an issue. But we will know when we need to know.Trust and Love is all we need to know now. We will meet our Savior as need be. We really can’t be sure until then.
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Lionheart
How do you know we will know when we need to know? 🤯
🦁❤️
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William McMillian
I am an American of Italian descent I do not like calling myself white because I have an olive complexion. I believe if people look for pictures of today's Aramaic people they will see relatives of Jesus. Race and ethnicity are clearly defining what we and then who we are. Jesus is for all people and various peoples like Chinese, Japanese, African pictures of Jesus. Many images can found in other cultures. Interestingly, the belief that God sees our souls!spirit and is viewing our spiritual selves.
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William Fritz
https://www.facebook.com/reel/253334413657627?s=yWDuG2&fs=e&mibextid=Nif5oz
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Kevan B Copelin
The Risen Christ, Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit manifests to the spiritual form adequate to belief in Christ’s Spirit. The disciples saw the Risen Christ. Jesus; Lives-Loves-Saves
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Stephen E. Goll
I thought about giving my own ideas, but there are so many others that I would probably do nothing more than reiterate everyone else. So...
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Stephen E. Goll
Rev. Stefan E. Gall
So, so many ways Jesus was described. He was who He was, and there should be no contradictions to this simple answer as to who He was...
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Stephen E. Goll
Jesus- Who was He?
This is basically an almost impossible question. Yes, the Bible describes him physically, but what about his mentality? There have been so many different ways He has been described, I believe, in my own mind regardless of what anyone else might have their own explanations, that He was no different than any other man. Yes, He was touted as the Son of God... But He could have been the son of so many other couples He would still be the same- But not quite.
My ideas only.
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Robin Murray
Roughly 2,000 years ago a young woman from the town of Nazareth named Mary was visited by an angel named Gabriel. Gabriel told the Jewish woman that she would have a son named Jesus and that he would be the Son of God. At this time, Mary was engaged to her soon-to-be husband Joseph. When told Joseph he was hurt and confused because he did not believe Mary. The angel Gabriel visited Joseph and told him that Mary would be pregnant from the Lord and that she would have a son named Jesus who would save the people from their sins. "In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. However, the biggest proof of a virgin impregnation would be on her wedding night Joseph would have had sex with Mary and he would have broken her hymen as required by the very strict laws back then. She was already pregnant before marriage. Not to mention the visitation of the Angel Gabriel to Joseph were he was told what to name the child and that the child was from God. .
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Stephen E. Goll
I believe what Jesus looked like is irrelevant. He was who He was. Period. I think the argument of what He looked like is non-relative
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Ann
If we focus on the message, the lessons, some of the anger may dissipate.
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Luisa Fernanda Montalvo Arroyave
The real Jesus could avoid the idea that catholisism is better than other religions. The white supremacy is respalded by the (extremely) white Jesus… this gonna change for Good!
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Anthony Curtis Beaver
First of all Jesus would have lived in the desert and been of dark Hebrew skin. He also, would be very strong being a Carpenter. At that time a Carpenter had to cut his own wood and then finish the project. This was very labor intensive at that time of History. Anyway, I know Jesus as the word made man. He is the word of God and his DNA would have been perfect giving him dark hair and dark eyes. He is the Father, who came as the son of Mary, and that Great Spirit is Holy. But, the son has life in himself. Now go learn what that means...
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
jesus tells me he's gay...just like me! yay :-)
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Angele
Your spirituality is determined by the quality of your love not by the content of your belief.
💞My soul knows no religion, no divisions💞
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Jill Ohayon
I posted a few minutes ago and realized there is an error. Jesus was white, but there are black people in the family tree of King David, King Solomon had at least one child with the Queen of Sheba, but the direct lineage of Jesus does not include the Queen of Sheba. The wife of Moses may have been black too. Of course there were black Jews, because it is a religion and not a race, but the line of David has always been described as red headed and white, and time after time oral traditions of all cultures have proven to be more accurate than what the 'historians' will tell you.
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Jill Ohayon
If Joseph was trying to save face wouldn't it have been easier to just say they had premarital sex? Guys woulda been like YEAH! and as far as Jewish custom is concerned, that's called marriage. The view back then was, you put your hand (or whatever it was) in the cookie jar, you just bought it. No stoning, just marriage, a custom still practiced in many Muslim cultures.
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John Peter Dugan
im pretty sure it doesnt matter, and if anyone thinks it does they may have problems and i wouldnt trust them.....
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Angela L Walker
Get to know the Father (Christ Jesus) on a intimate and personal basic pray to him and repent every day seek him dilligently.. We have to become prayer warriors, changing one life at a time this world is so wick!
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Rudea Smith
I'm just here for the comments.
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Roderick W Brown
I will direct my comments toward history and facts. I have never seen a picture of Mohammed, which renders race unimportant. The Muslims don't force a picture of their prophet on anyone. Let's realize that during biblical days people were all over the world. The Germanic Tribes of Northern Europe were mostly pagans and believed in Teutonic Mythology. Their supreme god was Odin and his son was Balder. Balder was described as having long blond hair and blue eyes and his skin was so pale and white that a glow radiated from his face. Those are physical characteristics of a cold climate and not the desert! People lie, but nature doesn't. A lot of pagans converted to Christianity around the 12th century. Many pagan practices were put in Christian dress. Sorry to say, but that painting a lot of so-called Christians have on their walls is that of the pagan god Balder, thus it is easy to accept. One description of the Messiah (Jesus)(there is no "J" in the Hebrew language) is of the skin of his feet " like bronze basted in an oven"! Bronze turns brown when heated at high temperatures. We are dealing with facts now! The Germanic tribes were in northern Europe, not in Northern Africa or the now Middle East. That "Lord of the Rings" stuff was about pagan religion. The brothers Grimm(Grimms' Fairy Tales) were German religious scholars. Read what they say about Teutonic Mythology, they have reference books in the library that you can't even check out. They write that Christianity in its original form was rejected by the pagans at first. It was watered down and many pagan principles were simply put in Christian-dress! How does mistletoe get into Christmas? Well, mistletoe killed Balder! Original Christianity was like Islam, meaning one God, but the pagans believed in many gods. Now you come with the story of God impregnating Mary and they said" we can buy that"! Some of them even traced their lineage, back to gods, thus Jesus was made into a God-like deity! How did the Messiah teach us to pray, he started with "Our Father"! He tried to teach us who Our Father was, because we did not know! I am just as much of God's son as Jesus was! Jesus said " the wonders and miracles that I have done, so shall you and even greater" when you accept and believe who the Father is! Jesus tried to teach us that we come through our mothers, but from the Heavenly Father! If you don't know that, then you don't know Jesus!
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John D. Partin
Douglas Robert Spindler, there are considerably more than 16 million Morons in the world (to use your term and the truthful term for them!) and a large number of those Morons also call themselves Mormons and are the only parishioners of that church!! The Mormon church's being one of the fastest growing religions in the world is an irrelevancy, since Idiots, as Morons are also called, have always been in the majority, and numbers, therefore, have never been a determining factor of anything's being right. Forty million French can be wrong, as can however many millions there are in the Moron (commonly called Mormon) church. The Bible is shown to be the Word of God because of the light, love, truth, forgiveness, mercy, higher thought and practices that are taught in it. There are false statements from men in it, but what is obviously from God isn't made less from God in the Bible because of those human ideas or hatefulness. The bad in the Bible often serves the purpose of highlighting the good that is in it, as the stars shine in the darkness of the night sky. The Bible relates the dealings of God with men and can't do that without showing some of men's filth and their wrong ideas. That isn't exaggeration. I have already said why the Book of Mormon is a fraud and a con game and don't want to keep going over and over the same thing all the time. Write it down this time! It's because the Book of Mormon was inspired by the egotism and desire for money and power of Joseph Smith and the whole story of how the plates for it were discovered sounds very suspicious and phony!!! Man has created some synthetic life because God gave him the ability to do that and allows him to do that or he wouldn't be able to do it. The self-made man doesn't exist because God endows all of us with whatever inventiveness, ingenuity or other talents that we have. As for many young people turning away from the Christian faith, many young people are also turning back toward or staying in the Christian faith. So, don't pretend that it is all an Exodus from Christianity, since there is an influx toward Christianity, too. The turners away among the young, the same as older people, are superficial, undiscerning, and worldly people who just follow any worldly fad or fashion, and that accounts for them
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Rev. Rosalinda T.
I do respect all your beliefs! There are many comments on here some from pagans, some from Christians and so on.. To be a Christian you believe and accept Christ as your lord and saviour. Jews know Jesus existed whether they accept as a Messiah that's between them and God. Muslims also know Jesus existed and He was the son of Mary. Now WHO CARES what color He was? You missed the entire message of the reason Jesus (Messiah) was sent to us. For those who don't believe that's on you not me. I for one a sinner who repents every day believe and accept Jesus as Lord Savior. I fear for the generation that will come and they won't too many. We live in a very scary time. I have had many premonitions and He is real. I recently saw Jesus coming in with wrath for War and their was no magic on earth that will protect you on that date. Doreen Virtue herself renounced the new age because the time is getting near. You can try and ridicule me all you want but my message is given and it is clear...REPENT before is too late! Jesus (Emmanuel, Yeshua, Yawee and whatever name he is known by) is real no matter what color He is He is real. You will remember this message when that day comes. May God have mercy on our souls. ❤🙏🤲🌹
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Lionheart
As we all seem to have a certain amount of Neanderthal DNA in us I wonder how much Neanderthal DNA was in Jesus (that’s if he really existed). That first image could possibly be more like what he might have looked like if he had more Neanderthal DNA than most. I wonder what his blood type was? 🤔
🦁❤️
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John D. Partin
I have already told you many times why God doesn't heal everyone and am tired of continually telling you and told you in Jesus Transgender to write it on a piece of paper and put it up on your refrigerator or tattoo it on your forearm or forehead or on your behind, so that your "wife" or the guys in the cabin could read it to you, since you evidently have a learning disability or early Altzheimer's. Go there and read it again!! God doesn't heal all of us because there is a bigger picture why He can't and some suffering and death are necessary for relieving people and teaching us not to be overwhelmed by these problems. Put that on your refrigerator and in your pipe and smoke it!!! When are you going to wake up and stop believing in your mythical "mindless universe" and realize that that doesn't exist, and accept the scientific teaching of Christianity that believes in mindfulness coming out of mindfulness, not from mindlessness?!! I'm very sorry for you stuck in your deep atheist faith and religious indoctrination and hope that you will learn how to think for yourself sometime and stop mooing and ambling along with the unthinking worldly herd and agree with the sensible teachings of Christianity!! I'm so very happy that I'm free from all that unintelligent "thinking" and not bound down by all that anymore, which is so very difficult for you and others to escape from and keeps all of you from truly thinking for yourself!!!
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Lionheart
🤡
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Robert Edward Szekely
Jesus and his apostles were a Jewish sect. Jesus was the teacher. Lord was an honorific term, as we've heard in studies of medieval literature of royalty, with its 'Lords' and 'Ladies'.
Christ (from Greek "christos") is a title, meaning "anointed" or "chosen". "Christ" is not a name. King David was also a christ, or a chosen one of God. The act of anointing was a ritual of confirming one's status as being chosen.
Is it not more likely that the story of Mary's divine insemination was to protect her from the penalty of death by stoning for adultery? What if Joseph wasn't her first lover? Saying that she was seeded with the messiah by the divine spirit--if believed--would surely save her from that grisly and barbaric bronze age death sentence.
Jesus--the Latinized version of the Hebrew Yeshua--which translated into English is Joshua--would not appear as he is generally pictured by modern day Christians (which just happens to go against the Commandment forbidding false images and idolatry).
As a Middle-Eastern Jew, Jesus (Joshua) would have been dark-eyed, swarthy-skinned, and his hair, if that long, would most likely have fallen naturally into curls. He and his followers did not call themselves "Christians"--that was initially an epithet hurled at them by them by the Romans. More realistically, the "Jesus sect" of Judaism was probably known as the "Followers of the Nazarene". Muslims have been known to refer to the apostles of Jesus and those who followed in their footsteps as "Nasarites".
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John D. Partin
"Is it not more likely that the story of Mary's divine insemination was to protect her from the penalty of death by stoning for adultery? What if Joseph wasn't her first lover? Saying that she was seeded with the messiah by the divine spirit--- if believed--- would surely save her from that grisly and bronze age death sentence". The two key words in that paragraph are "if believed" because her insemination by the Holy Spirit wouldn't have been believed by the other Jews and they still would have thought that she had been impregnated by another man and that her story about "the Holy Spirit's overshadowing her and producing a child within her" was just made up to try to get out of a stoning for adultery. They weren't more gullible and believing of every story they were told about "conceiving through the Holy Spirit" or "talking snakes or donkeys" or other fantastic creatures just because they lived two thousand years ago than people are today. If they let her slide and didn't stone her, despite considering her story to be "obviously made up", it can only have been because they didn't think that she was "quite right in the head" to make up something like that and expect them to believe that and so took pity on her and didn't want to stone "a crazy girl"! She wouldn't have made that story up on the very slim or non-existent chance that they would take pity on her as "a crazy girl" and not stone her, either, if that's where you're going or might go because that would still have been taking too big a chance and far more chance than just coming out with her "adultery", if that's what happened, and hoping for the best would have been. Any way that you slice it, there would have been no reason for her to say that she was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, if it didn't happen, since she wouldn't have gained anything by it. This story that wasn't ever going to be believed by people, anyway, would have done her no more good than her just coming out with the "truth" that "she had sex with another man" and so she would have just said so, if it had actually been true, and let the chips fall where they may, since neither explanation was, by itself, going to save her. So, she told the truth about the Holy Spirit's overshadowing her and giving her a child, since it didn't matter that the Jews wouldn't believe it and so there was no reason for her to make up a story that they wouldn't believe. The Pharisees around Jesus during his adulthood never believed any stories about his raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, healing lepers, driving out demons from people, walking on water, feeding five thousand with five loaves and two fishes, or, after his death, appearing to 500 people or Mary Magdalene or the disciples, despite any people's testifying that they were true, or else just said that "he casts out devils through the prince of devils" and did other miracles the same way. So, they would have believed even less any stories about his being born of a virgin that happened before they knew him or that they never witnessed themselves! And the Jews around when he was born wouldn't have believed it, either. This whole "Mary was impregnated by another man" idea comes from modern people's not being able to accept a divine explanation of her being with child, and so even an "explanation" of it that the people back then wouldn't have believed, either, or backed off from a stoning over is more "reasonable" to them than any explanation of it involving God. Their not being able to accept the Holy Spirit's overshadowing her and giving her a child and it's not being true aren't the same thing at all. Their accepting that she was "impregnated by another man" and it's being true are two different things, too. Don't discount the working of a miracle in the Virgin Mary or anywhere else just because it doesn't fit into your narrowly and bigotedly "scientific and rationalistic" view of life and the world because "all things are possible with God" and "there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy"!!
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John D. Partin
Do you really think that the ancient Israelites believed that there were any such thing as talking donkeys or talking snakes or any of the other fantastic creatures in those stories when they first came out or that God would have any reason at all to make these creatures able to talk, anymore than ancient Greeks believed in the talking animals in Aesop's Fables or the Norsemen or other Pagans literally believed that their stories were actually true? Give them all a lot more credit than that! From their own being around animals nearly all the time, for riding, farming, and food, they would certainly have known that animals couldn't possibly talk or ever have talked, through a miracle or anything else, and that God would have had no possible reason for any such miracles, and that those stories were all just for the purpose of relating morals to people and teaching them. You have more faith in those people's literally believing in "talking donkeys", "talking snakes", etc. than they ever had in those things ever actually being true, since they had NO!!! faith in their being true. God's existence doesn't depend on "talking donkeys" or "talking snakes", since it is proved (even if not to you because of your closed-mindedness to ever seeing or admitting any evidence for God's existence) by the actual universe and His being the only actually sensible explanation for the laws and interconnection of them for its operation, and the answering of prayers which aren't being answered by everything that human beings can try to do to answer them!! It is just obstinate and pervertedly pigheaded blindness not to see and admit God as the obvious explanation of that!! These weren't such gullible fools as that just because they lived 3,000 or more years ago, as many "modern and sophisticated" people today are, who would believe in anything as obviously ridiculous, insane, and illogical as "a mindless universe coming up with its own laws and interconnection of them for its operation, without a Mind behind it"!! They were smarter than to believe anything such as that, either, which can't, unfortunately, be said for you and Bill Maher and other "sophisticated" people today!! Compared to that idea, "talking donkeys" or "talking snakes" are utter genius, since there are, at least, donkeys and snakes and they will start talking very much sooner than any mindless universe will start coming up with its own laws and interconnection of them for its operation, which it will never do!!! Francis the Talking Mule and Mr. Ed have shown that a mule and horse can be made to appear to "talk" through ventriloquism or someone's talking off camera for them, but no Hollywood magic or any other trick will ever succeed in making the universe do what you and other people say that it can do without a Mind behind it, in your desperation to come up with any other "possibility" for the existence and functioning of the universe that excludes the Mind of God behind it!! Flying monkeys were even dreamed up for The Wizard of Oz, which the Israelites would never have come up with even for their stories, though knowing that people wouldn't believe literally in them, either, and so our modern imagination is far wilder than theirs was!!
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Rev Mark D
Well people of today are sophisticated enough to believe Bill Gates installing programming and poisoning them in the guise of immunization shots via robot rays from Jews etc. etc. etc. etc. A talking ass is not so very much farther, eh?
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John D. Partin
Your wife is just something else that you use to be evasive once again and avoid answering the points in my December 23 post against your illogical "position", since that is all that you ever do because you have no answer to those points and so can only be evasive!! Does your wife mind being used for that purpose or have you indoctrinated and brainwashed her too well for her to even care about or notice it?!!
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John D. Partin
Why do you pretend to yourself and other people here that all of you atheists and godless people are the only ones who are "too sophisticated, reasonable, realistic, and cynical to ever fall for any myths and lies", while "all gullibility is found only among religious and especially Christian people"? Because that isn't what the evidence of your falling for the mythology of "the mindless universe's coming up with its own laws and interconnection of them for its operation and creating itself" and even answered prayers' "proving that nobody answered them, since there is nobody to answer them, and it is just coincidence" says about you! That isn't what your falling for the mythology of Trumpelstiltskin's and conservative lies says about you! Compared to all of you and your gullibility, believers in Mormonism, "virgin births", Mohammed, Thor, Vishnu, or Krishna are "nuclear physicists and eminent men and women of science"!! Your belief in your fallacious "science" and Republican and conservative propaganda and obvious lies is proof that your kind of gullibility does happen today and you are the pot calling the kettle "black" about that!! Yes, your beliefs are laughable and you are in error!! It is truly amazing how people like to believe Republican and conservative propaganda and pseudoscience with no factual evidence are real, isn't it, even to the point of hating and ostracizing others if they don't believe in their tales (as has happened at Trump rallies)?!!
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Rev Nolan
I'm interested in what you have to say, but if you could kindly break it down into an outline of sorts, I think we would all appreciate easier reading. Currently, I'm reading a bunch of unintelligible, but strong, good thoughts. Thanks.
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John D. Partin
Rev. Nolan, if you are addressing me, I'm glad that you are interested in what I have to say. As to the form of my post, I write in the same block style as others do above and as the person whom I was addressing does in this thread and as they do in other threads and you have no problem understanding them. I don't have to write in any particular way other than just saying it and stream of consciousness in order to be understood, as long as it's English. My posts are easy enough to understand and as easy as they are going to get. How could something be "unintelligible", but strong and good at the same time? Please explain.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Douglas I'm purple with green stripes and orange polka dots, and I do care.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
To the best of my past life recollection, the Christ family lived in that manger for years. They were filthy tramps, and nobody wanted to rent to them.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
To the best of my past life memory, of that life I lived in Bethlehem, more than two thousand years ago, the whole Christ family, with the exception of that never a virgin whore Mary, all looked like thugs.
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Robert James Flynn
I do not care what Jesus, Mary and Joseph looked like? That is not important. However, I do not believe that they were as white as they are often presented.
I do believe that they were and are more Middle Eastern looking since they are from Israel.
The important thing is that Jesus is my Lord and Savior! We need to keep the faith and teachings of our Christian Religions.
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Rev Nolan
With all due respect, what does "Jesus is my Lord and Savior" mean?
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RIchard A Basen
I've been reading thru all of the comments here. It's interesting the diverse opinions expressed. There are many stories and myths about who may or may not have existed at the time, as well as what they looked like. I've heard comments like "Man created God in his image". "The artist was inspired by God". In reality, no one actually knows what the personage of the one we call Jesus actually looked like, if he existed at all. There are stories and theories from hundreds of people who claim to be 'experts' ... What is most likely, is that IF he existed during the time he's claimed to have, he would have 'fit in' and looked like rest of the people of that region at that time. He was, if anything, not white, not blond and did not have blue eyes. We can argue back and forth all we want.. But we cant change facts. First, there is no real proof that he existed. There are stories that go back to Horus that are all similar to the story of Jesus. The one document we have is one highly edited and biased book that was assembled over 600 years after the fact. There are other documents that show things and beings that came from space.. even drawings in caves around the world! These could explain many of the mysteries of the world. Just because we refuse to accept anything but one group of stories, does not make any one more real than any other one. If we live by the two statements.. "God is LOVE" and "Treat others as you wish to be treated"... we'd all be much better off.
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Lionheart
For the most part I agree with you Richard. As for whether “God is love”:
1) No one has yet come up with any demonstrable evidence that any god is real?
2) The jealous, angry one, mythically characterized in the OT, clearly isn’t love.
I think though, I’ll go with your statement “Treat others as you wish to be treated” 🤗. I like that! Have a happy new year.
🦁❤️
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John D. Partin
(1). When the entire universe and mindless matter and forces not being able to do anything for themselves or make laws or interconnect them without a Mind behind them doing all that for them don't prove the existence of God to you, it is because you have cut yourself off from getting any proof of it, which isn't the same thing as there being no proof. (2). God's characterization in the Old Testament is no more who He is than your or other people's characterization by people who make up whatever they like about all of you is who all of you are. So, why do you have a different standard for God than you have for yourselves? That is hypocrisy!! God is love, no matter what lies were told about Him in the Bible. If you say that you will go with the statement "Treat others as you wish to be treated", why don't you consistently treat God, too, fairly, as you would like other people to do for you, and not believe just any rotten thing that anyone says about Him in the Bible when you wouldn't want just any rotten things that anyone made up about you to be believed?!!
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Lionheart
Please have your God contact me directly John and I’ll discuss it with him. Being omniscient he should be able to do that….right?
I’ll let you know if he bothers to contact me. I’ll accept his not contacting me if he’s busy emptying children's hospitals getting them all well, which is what I’d be doing if I was a deity.
🦁❤️
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John D. Partin
God only speaks to the humble and those with faith, as I have told you already in another post, and you have neither humility nor faith, which excludes you from any chance of meeting or conversing with God. Fortunately for us all, Someone far smarter than you are is running the universe or things would be very much worse than the ungodly are making them now!! I won't keep on wasting my time explaining to you why God isn't emptying the hospital beds or why your thinking that you would do that in God's place would be foolish because I have explained it repeatedly to you and you still don't get it, and there is no way of ever getting any sense or reason through to someone like you. Enough casting of more pearls in front of your kind for now!! Get some faith and humility or forget about talking with God, until you die, but you won't like that conversation at all!!!
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Lionheart
As far as I can tell, John, your omniscient God still proves to be illusive from healing those humble little children dying in hospitals. What’s it like being an apologist for a mythical deity that doesn’t seem able to heal the worlds little sick and dying children, but in many peoples heads helps people pass driving tests, school exams, and score goals? How long will it be before you wake up and realize you’re defending something in your imagination. I actually feel very sorry for your deep indoctrination, and also for those who caused you to be where you are. I am so glad I am free to think for myself and not have to rely on religious dogma that is hard to shake off that is preventing you from truly thinking for yourself.
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John D. Partin
I have already told you many times why God doesn't heal everyone and am tired of continually telling you and told you in Jesus Transgender to write it on a piece of paper and put it up on your refrigerator or tattoo it on your forearm or forehead or on your behind, so that your "wife" or the guys in the cabin could read it to you, since you evidently have a learning disability or early Altzheimer's. Go there and read it again!! God doesn't heal all of us because there is a bigger picture why He can't and some suffering and death are necessary for relieving people and teaching us not to be overwhelmed by these problems. Put that on your refrigerator and in your pipe and smoke it!!! When are you going to wake up and stop believing in your mythical "mindless universe" and realize that that doesn't exist, and accept the scientific teaching of Christianity that believes in mindfulness coming out of mindfulness, not from mindlessness?!! I'm very sorry for you stuck in your deep atheist faith and religious indoctrination and hope that you will learn how to think for yourself sometime and stop mooing and ambling along with the unthinking worldly herd and agree with the sensible teachings of Christianity!! I'm so very happy that I'm free from all that unintelligent "thinking" and not bound down by all that anymore, which is so very difficult for you and others to escape from and keeps all of you from truly thinking for yourself!!!
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Robert Edward Szekely
Wow. So God is a snob, eh?
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Lionheart
He also gives the impression he has a HUGE ego. Wants everyone to bow down to him, and worship him...FOR EVER. Ego doesn't get much bigger than that. 🤪
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John D. Partin
God, obviously, doesn't have a huge ego, except to people, such as yourself, who want to make Him "another egotist like yourself", so as to be "dismissive of Him" in your own "thinking", anyway, and "justifying" of yourselves!! God doesn't need anyone's adulation, worship or subservience because He existed for billions of years without any worship, adulation or subservience from anyone, being complete in Himself! The same can't be said of egotists, who shrivel up and fade away or die when they don't have adoring and praising worshippers around them anymore, to bolster their actually puny egos, as happened to Trumpelstiltskin, Hitler, Allesandro Cagliostro (a famous practitioner of Egyptian Freemasonry) who died all alone in the prisons of the Inquisition, and many other egotistical people in history. People benefit themselves by loving and worshipping God, which is His only concern with their putting Him above other "gods", and that they not give their love and devotion to con artist "gods" and spirits, who will only use or hurt or kill them, the same as you and other people who love anyone don't want them being conned by giving their love and devotion to people who will only use, hurt or kill them. When you become "wrong" for wanting to protect your loved ones, then you could call God "wrong" for wanting to protect those whom He loves and who love Him, but if you aren't wrong for wanting that, neither is God wrong for wanting that, by any consistent standard. The priests of Baal slashed themselves with knives and went crazy in front of Elijah, trying to make Baal bring fire down from heaven to ignite an altar and other false "gods" have driven their followers into crazy and murderous or suicidal behavior, such as the Thuggee followers of Kali who strangled their victims and sacrificed them to her, the followers of the Heaven's Gate cult who committed mass suicide, the followers of Jim Jones, who was their "god", and also committed mass suicide, the Manson family, who considered Charles Manson both "Christ" and "Satan", and many other examples down through history. God wanted to save His loved ones from any such fate as that!! The only wrong things that God has ever "said" or "done" have been those things that have merely been ascribed to Him and put into His mouth by some Bible writers because it can't correctly be said "God is love" and Him telling people to "love your neighbor as yourself" and "love one another as I have loved you" and the teaching on love in 1 Corinthians 13 be from God, but this "hate and kill other people" nonsense also be from God, since that is an obvious self-contradiction. They can't both be true and since this "hate and kill other people" is what people are on about even without any reference to God at all and that they don't need God for, it is obvious that the love teaching and practice are what is really from God in the Bible. My Catechism tells me that God created the universe, world, and people out of His great overwhelming love, not so that He could have worshippers or followers. I can't fully explain this any shorter than this, for you and others who think that I have written too much for you to understand again.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I've spoken with Jesus a few times, right here in Galveston, usually on the seawall. Eàch time he àppeared as a different person, and sometimes of different ethnicities, but they were all wearing a hospital bracelet, so I knew it was him. I guess they wear that so they can get in at the Jesus conventions, which are held at mental hospitals, next to the Elvis ward.
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Rev Nolan
Well, what do you know! You can imagine how many reincarnated Virgin Marys I have met in my short lifetime.
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Rev Nolan
Well, what do you know! You can imagine how many reincarnated Virgin Marys I have met in my short lifetime.
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TheSound.com
The last time I saw Jesus, who had the real name of Yeshua when he was on Earth, was when I had a near-death experieince. He was surrounded by such a bright light, the only thing I could realize of his features was pure love that transcends all.
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Lionheart
I’ve read similar articles of people who embraced the Islamic faith. One claimed to have seen Mohammed in a bright light, another said they saw Allah. I even read a while back of someone who said they saw Krishna during a near death experience. Others see nothing. This data tells me that when the brain is going into oxygen deprivation during near death our brains induce states of what we have been accustomed, and possibly what we want to see, during our time here on earth.
🦁❤️
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John D. Partin
Oxygen deprivation near death doesn't explain out of body experiences while people are in comas and look down on their own bodies and tell doctors and nurses things that they did and said or even said or did in other parts of the hospital when the people come out of coma, which they had no way of seeing or hearing while they were unconscious and those people weren't within hearing range. Oxygen deprivation would make people less aware, not more aware, of what is going on around them, and those visions aren't dependent on what we have been accustomed to or want to see. So, they are the result of spirits of these people seeing and hearing things while outside of their bodies. Oxygen deprivation doesn't even explain satisfactorily visions of people where they see tunnels of light, Heaven, Hell, Jesus, etc. because they don't always see what they were expecting to see, according to their evaluation and view of themselves. Some people who think that they are really good people see themselves in Hell in near death experiences or who think that they are very bad people see themselves in Heaven or going toward the tunnel of light, which wouldn't be the case if these experiences were based solely on our expectations and what we want to see. Some Muslims have seen Jesus in near death experiences. Again, not what they were expecting to see. This "oxygen deprivation explanation" is far too pat an answer and generalized to really work as an explanation of near death experiences. Only our spirits seeing these visions reasonably explain them, while your "explanation" is merely the result of your not accepting anything as proof of the existence of spirits and life after death or outside of the body and being totally closed-minded about the matter and so preferring any illogical "explanation" of visions in near death to the sensible explanation.
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arawngraalrd
It was dark, so I might never recall what Mary, avatar of Ishtar, actually looked like, but she'd have been Sabra.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
You're right, Arawny! Mary did have some aliases. And I did her in the dark, too. I heard she was quite a sight for sore eyes in t hi e light, and I only ever wanted a quickie, during that incarnation I lived in Bethlehem.
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John Casillo
"Mary had a little lamb who's fleece was white as snow"......so there you have it.....white is what you start with when painting on canvas..........rev john
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Brenda S Fanning
I believe the point should be his actions rather than his features.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
As a child, Jesus was a good shoe shine boy, and was quite a storyteller. The boy was truly blessed with the gift of gab!
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kent thomas barr
The message of the Savior is clear, and has nothing to do with race.
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John P Maher
AND @ THIS MOMENTYOUR MESSAGE is as CLEAR as YOUR SAVIOUR, CAN NOT SEE EITHER !
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Gary Richard Noce
CBE, What are you ? Why are you here ? I can't believe I'm bothering to ask.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Like the song goes Noce, "Pleased to meet you. Won't you guess my name!"
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Move, part of the reason I'm here is to help you work your spiritual program by giving you something to pray about. Keep coming back, cumpare. There's a lot more for you to learn.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
In my above comment the Android poltergeist changed Noce to Move, and just now tried to change it to Nice!
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Trudy Lynn Dulong
I love that the “artist’s rendition” of what God might have looked like seems to be Morgan Freeman’s role in the series “Lucifer.” Give credit where credit is due please; although I can see why that might be controversial on this website. People shouldn’t be so quick to judge (and Jesus did say that was “God’s business”). And for what it’s worth, I found Lucifer to be a very entertaining and thought provoking series.
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Robert Edward Szekely
That was Dennis Haysbert who played God in the TV series Lucifer, BTW. You should recognize him from the Allstate insurance commercials.
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Gary Richard Noce
Obviously, Jesus was dark in complexion.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
No darker than a Sicilian, Noce.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
P.S. My mother's maiden name was Pistone, and my grandmother's maiden name was Maniscalco. My other grandmother's maiden name was Grave, and she was born in Mexico. I guess that makes me an all American mutt. I'm only here because I'm not all there. And, "I'm wasted, and can't find my way home".
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Michael Barton
It seems unlikely that white folk would follow a spiritual leader from another race that they probably didn't respect back then. So Jesus being black or dark skinned wouldn't make sense. If anything, he looked Arab with light skin. The romans in the area were white, so it's not like there weren't white people in the area when Jesus was in his prime.
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Victor Marcus Monroe
In Genesis 12:1-3 Abraham who is considered father of the Hebrews was not a Jew. The word Jew didn't appear in the bible until 2nd Kings. He came from a nation of people whom God told to leave and form a new nation. Since Ishmael was the son of Abraham from a slave girl he was not considered Hebrew. Jacob the younger son son was born from his wife Sarah. He was considered a person from the new nation of people. Ishmael developed his own nation. Abraham was a mesopotamian so he could have been one of several ethnic groups of people who lived there. He could even be a mix of them. We don't know because we have no body to perform DNA analysis. But since Mary had Yeshua through immaculate conception then Joseph's DNA would not be involved with Yeshua's blood line. Only Mary's bloodline. Immaculate conception wasn't anything original. Other races have stories about a leader born in that fashion. Being a Jew meant you were born in Judea. Jew was the short form of the word. Timeline makes an interesting point that during the time of 2nd Kings the Hebrews were enslaved by Assyrians. It's hard to pinpoint who or what Jesus was in the genetic scheme of things. The Christ is not an entity of human existence. it's a spiritual entity that has come to earth on several occasions to bring messages during those times of incarnation. Siddhartha performed similar miracles like Yeshua did I his time. Was he an incarnation of the Christ? Very possible. Humans seem to think they have a handle on how the universe we see works but have little knowledge on how the unseen part of the universe exist. All religions are man made and have inconsistency from one author to another, but most believe in a God of their choosing. I believe there is an atomic force that creates. Everything we see is of an atomic structure we can't see with the naked eye. All races have the same thing in common. Thought. Thoughts are not something that that floats around in our brains. It's and entity that is energy based out in the universe. We pick up those thoughts through the brain that is mostly electrical impulses. Not my theory but one I believe to be true. I believe it was Einstein who sad that, although I paraphrased it. It's how I bieve God was created. A thought happened and from there all else took place. Nothing happens without thought. No matter what form it come in.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
J should have turned off my phone, before I went to sleep, so now I'm drinking coffee. Well, I felt a slight headache coming on, which can only mean a symptom of caffeine withdrawal. So don't be surprised if I write another masterful sermon tonight.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
In this noisy confusion of life Ehrman, I'd say it's about time for me to take a nap.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
That's one thing of my youth I did give up, Ehrman. I quit going to those worthless meetings that are only good for people like you, after attending atleast a meeting a day for thirty two years, starting when I was twenty years old, and exchanged it with trying to minister to numbskulls like to our, on this blog. They even suckered me into completing a year long course to become a substance abuse counselor, so I know an a co-dependant addict when I see one. So, you don't have a leg to stand on!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Can't anyone think of anything to add to that. Come on, people. The clock is ticking. It's not like they've given us a new article to move on to yet.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Ehrman, many of the people who strive for high ideals remain redundant fools, and I'm not about to bow down and kiss their feet, or tolerate their foolishness. You sound like you'd rather give them a cookie, a pat on the back, and tell them to keep coming back. This ain't no A.A. meeting!!! However, it might be good for someone like you to attend atleast one meeting everyday. And work the steps, and get a sponsor! You won't find all the answers in that silly poem you wrote (Desiderata). You sound like you're suffering from self will run riot! Give it up, man!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Thomas, I quit tucking in my shirts many years ago, the first time I got fat, except for when wearing a buttoned coat. Didn't you know that fat people look thinner that way. And whenever you have a date shut off the lights until after you disrobe. Feeling rolls of blubber aren't as scary in the dark.
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Thomas Edwin Peterson
it bothers me less than how i will tuck my shirt tomorrow how Jesus and family looked. the image should be what your heart professes it to be. little else matters. imho.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I've never heard of a heart professing anything, Thomas. We profess with our mouths about the things we think about in our brains. If it sounds like your heart is talking it might be time for a medication change.
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John D. Partin
Thomas Edwin Peterson is obviously speaking about our spiritual hearts, not our physical hearts, speaking and our mouths saying the words given to them by our spiritual hearts. If you don't believe that you are also saying with your mouth the words given to you by your spiritual heart or that you have a spiritual heart, the same as everyone else does for himself or herself, you need to become better acquainted with yourself, so that you will know that you do that and have a spiritual heart, or get to a psychiatrist so that he can fix that perception problem in yourself!!
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Alicia Szot
Considering where Jesus supposedly came from, I think that Bas Uterwijk got it right! The 2001 attempt, IMO is insulting (and I'm not even Christian)! That makes Jesus look like a Neanderthal.
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Mark Hannon
Does it seem like white people are afraid it would be a contradiction to their belief if they might like, follow or even love a non-white character?
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Alicia Szot
I think it's what you grew up to know. Personally, I think anyone who believes in Jesus looks at him as an image of themselves...the same as god. There's no "fear" involved. If I visited a black church, would I be upset if they depicted Jesus or god as black? Not at all.
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Rev Mark D
Hypocrite Baloney. Is what you grew up to know is that Jesus is black? I don't think so.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
They tried to teach me at St. Mary's Elementary School that Jewish people are yellow, as if they were all afflicted with hepatitis. They might not be as white as Anglos or Saxons, but they don't look yellow to me, native Americans don't look red, and only albinos are white. I bet all that got started by someone who was color blind. Maybe we're all different shades of the same color, which kind of sort of makes us all the same.
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Rev Mark D
Yellow, that's a new one!
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Lionheart
Personally, I blame it all on the white racist Snowman. and the very woke racist mythical God, for making snow be the color white, and cursing Cain with a dark skin. Also, the light at the end of the tunnel for the near-death experience folk clearly isn't black. Have you noticed though that outer space is black, and some things in space get sucked into black holes. I guess black holes matter? 🤷🏻♂️ Just some humor for the festive season! 😇
Enjoy your holidays.🎅🏼
🦁♥️
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Rev Mark D
Depends how good they look.
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John D. Partin
Jesus answered this question himself when he said "Judge not by the appearance, but judge a righteous judgment". There can be black representations of Jesus or Asian representations of Jesus or, if any extra-terrestials ever accepted Jesus, representations of him in the form of their species of beings (nine foot tall with blue skin and large black eyes or looking however), if that makes it easier for them to relate to Jesus, so long as they know that he wasn't a black or Asian or European or extra-terrestial being. The Europeans made Jesus look Europeanish in order to relate to him better and because they were, often, the majority of those who were believing in him (in their minimalist way). So, if there can be black Jesuses and Asian Jesuses for that purpose, there can also be lily white Jesuses for that purpose, but, more importantly, we should listen to him in whatever form he is presented and not just when he looks like us, since it is the heart that matters and what he is saying to us that matters, and not the external appearance of this or that depiction of him.
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Lionheart
Who knows what Jesus ever really said, if he ever really existed. No one that knew him ever wrote about him as far as we know. All we have are stories handed down, and written by others, in most cases decades later.
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John D. Partin
No people would be willing to die martyrs' deaths for someone who never even existed and didn't come back after his death! People have never done that in history for something that they knew was imaginary and that they had just made up! That is ridiculous! The apostles were afraid and hiding in the upper room for fear of being arrested by the Jews and were despondent and hopeless after Jesus' death. Only a very radical occurrence, such as Jesus' actual resurrection and appearance to them, could have transformed them from these frightened hopeless men into bold preachers of what they knew to be true and had seen, heard, and felt for themselves, since no other frightened hopeless people in history have ever transformed as they did! Watch the movie and read the book The Case For Christ, about the atheist Lee Strobel, who doubted, as you do, Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, and was convinced by the evidence that Jesus lived, died, and resurrected. Other atheists have changed into believers in Jesus after studying the evidence of His life and resurrection. Also, nobody ever spoke as Jesus spoke, as Scripture says. If people were just making up a character, they would make him like themselves and saying the kinds of things that they say, not ideas that are totally contrary to human thinking and outside of their knowledge and comprehension. That hasn't happened in the history of fictional characters, either! So, it is certain that Jesus actually lived, died, and resurrected from all this evidence and from the 500 who saw him after His resurrection, since they wouldn't have said that they saw Him alive, either, for fear of the Jews' and Sanhedrin's arresting them, too. It doesn't matter that this account was written decades or even hundreds of years after the event because historians still would have pointed out that those people who saw Jesus after His death wouldn't have said so for fear of Jewish reprisals and so there would be no point in putting it in the New Testament. But it is there, despite their knowing that there would be that objection to it, and so the objection doesn't matter and those people actually witnessed Jesus' resurrection. A made up story also doesn't have women testifying to Jesus' resurrection, since women weren't allowed to testify about any matters in those times and that place, and so the inclusion of their testimony, the same as of the 500, despite objections that that would have been "unlikely" in that society, proves that that didn't matter and that it was the truth!
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Lionheart
My wife just looked over my shoulder and saw a bit of what you wrote here John. Whatever you wrote, her first comment was "Awe...bless him, he genuinely believes in everything he writes doesn't he......is he ok?" I've tried to reassure her that you obviously have a lot of pent up emotions related to religious indoctrination and have a need to spend a lot of time writing it all out. Anyway, long story short, she genuinely wishes you get well, as do we all. Try and have a wonderful and happy new year.
🦁♥️
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John D. Partin
Oh, well, your wife incredibly agrees with you and "thinks" that I'm "wrong", too, and asks "if I'm okay"!! That settles everything and you should have brought her into this much earlier and we could have avoided so long a conversation about this matter, since she is such an "unbiased" source of opinion!! Why would I care any more about her opinion than I care about yours or consider her any more objective than I consider you, considering her situation with you and both of your atheist faith indoctrination against Christianity?!! How good could her judgment actually be?!! Do you have any other irrelevant relatives that you want to bring in to this conversation to tell me their worthless opinions about myself or my beliefs, since you don't consider just telling me your own insane beliefs to be enough to "contradict" or "convince" me or other truly thinking people that you are "correct"?! Because if you dragged in your whole family ancestry, if they were all as illogical as you are, enough to accept the atheist faith, that still wouldn't "prove your case" any more than you have been able to do all by yourself!! So, why drag your wife into this discussion, since she has nothing to do with it and doesn't add anything to your "case"? The term "hiding behind a woman's skirts" immediately comes to mind! She, quite obviously, hasn't given any serious thought, if she is even capable of it any more than you are, to your own clearly sick ideas that "the mindless universe is running itself" and "answered prayers don't prove that anyone answered them and it is coincidence" and "the Donald was a good President" or she would be genuinely wishing you to get better, as she would for anyone else so afflicted as yourself, if she even knows the difference between sickness and health and doesn't make excuses for you!! I wish you and her and your whole family recovery from your sickness, too. You, quite obviously, have a great deal of pent up emotions related to your atheist faith indoctrination and have a need to spend a lot of time writing it all out!! We can stop these games whenever you like or continue them for as long as you like. Let's just stay on topic and leave your wife and other irrelevant condescending diversions from topic out of it!!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
You'd never believe all the characters I've loved who weren't white, Mark.
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Rev Mark D
Any Norse or germanic white woman and man would have cooked into a cinder in that desert sun. So you tell me.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I bet they put a lot of aloe vera on their skin, Mark.
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Rev Mark D
If it was me, I wouldn't remain white, I'd be red and dead. So the pic would have had to happen a lot earlier than my 30s. Unless of course I really was the son of god, you know I did forget to put that into the equation...now that I think of it, you know he probably could pull off anything, including turning white.
Maybe that white blue eyed blond picture is right then.
Although, as Bill Cosby once said, quoting God of course, when God told Noah one pair the animals entering the ark were actually the same sex: Noah was by that time very tired and worn out and a little bit cranky...he responded very testily back to God "You change one of them!" And God Said (capitals intended): "You know I don't work like that."
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Reverend Kurt
Does it really matter what colour your particular fantasy is presented as? If this Jesus fantasy is so important in your life, could you not put your prejudices aside to accommodate it? Incidently Israeli archaeologists and theologians have identified several persons who could have been Jesus. If the Bible version of his birth is true then why is it an outright plagiarism of the birth of Mithra?? But hey you buy into the Bible fantasy, and so are deliberately blind too anything else, again what difference does colour make except to the Christian White supremacists?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
must be a libtard calling Christians racists etc.
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Rev. B
Comment removed by user.
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Lionheart
If they really existed, does it matter what they really looked like? Personally, I feel sorry for Joseph, he got the short end of the deal, if there really was one. If anyone deserved sainthood/knighthood it's him. He's hardly ever talked about, and was quickly written out of the fable/tale/story.
He possibly drank himself under the table at the local pub/inn many times telling his mates that god had given his wife a baby. He must have been soooo ridiculed! I bet everyone in the pub/inn laughed at him and didn't believe him saying "Here comes Joe, just humor him, but don't mention his wife, just pretend you believe him". In his favor though, Joe, bless him, could obviously sell sand in the Sahara, because he managed to con some of them, and then the word spread like a sand storm. Talk about gullibility! Anyway, there we have it! It wouldn't happen to day, no one would believe anything like that.....oh....but wait 😳
🦁♥️
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Rev Nolan
I love this perspective more than any I have read so far! ♥️♥️♥️♥️👍🏽♥️♥️♥️♥️
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Rev Mark D
I do really love Lion's perspective here. Good Job, Joe!!
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John D. Partin
"Rev" Mark D, why do you and "Rev" Nolan love this mockery of St. Joseph, who has nothing against either of you or anyone else, but only loved God and foster fathered Jesus, who died to save us?!! That isn't doing unto others as you would have others do unto you or loving your neighbor as yourself, as actual ministers would be doing and teaching by their example!! That is why I put your titles in quotation marks, since you aren't living up to them!! Do you believe in mocking other people who haven't done anything against you, too, such as Jews, black people, Asians, or anyone else?!!
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David Richard Procter
Joseph was dead and buried long before Christianity and Christ got any publicity. Do your homework before creating attractive fiction.
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Jill Ohayon
Mary would not have had any piercings. Jews are not aloud to mark or pierce their bodies. And don't look at your Jewish neighbor down the street, go ask someone orthodox who still knows the rules. Also, they were Nazarenes, a sect that did not cut their hair or shave their beards. Long hair for men as well as women. And a long beard for the men. As far as assuming they were black, where are you even getting that from? Jewish tradition states that King David and King Solomon were redheads. Are you going to try and tell me they were red headed black people? Yes, I know they exist, but give me a break. The faulty assumption here is that north Africans back then were black, or Arab. They were neither. They were white. This is historical truth. Even in Egypt it was known, southern Egyptians were dark, but northern Egyptians were white. The original Berbers were Mediterranean white people, and they inhabited most of North Africa. They were displaced by Arabs (who co-opted the name Berber) during the Muslim conquest. Some of the original Berbers mixed with the Arab population, others fled. Look at pictures of the ones that fled and didn't mix, they are fair skinned white, just like the Jews and northern Egyptians of that time. Why does it matter? Because denying his race is a way of rewriting history. Ask yourself why they would want to do this? It's right out of the Nazi playbook. No, black people are not inferior, but for centuries a lot of white people said they were, just like the nazis insisted that Jews weren't white. By repainting Jesus as black you are saying Jews are not white. And it creates an inescapable loop of hatred because if someone points out that Jesus was white, because Jews are white (yes, Ethiopian Jews exist, yes there are dark Jewish people, but not the line of David) that person is accused of being racist against black people. Remember, the people who say these things masquerade as your friends in order to sew hatred. It is not racist to portray someone as white, when he was white. Rather, it is racist to deny his race to pander and divide.
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Robin Murray
(A repost from above) The original Jewish people were not Black, but Middle eastern. This has been proven by tracing the root languages of Hebrew. Jesus most probably looked like any Palestinian or Syrian since his parents were from Nazareth located in present day Northern Israel. While technically they are classified as Caucasian, they would not be "white" as we think of present day whites, but like indigenous people from that area who are darker skinned. The "white" Jesus came from all of the Italian artists the Catholic church paid to paint their version of Jesus. People need to get past worrying about what color he was and worry about following his message.
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Stephen E. Goll
This is one of the most comprehensive explanations of Jesus and his true color.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
oh wow. An atheist. Joseph is s saint. No he didn't get a raw deal.
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Lionheart
You'd have to be a Saint, anyone would that accepted such a raw deal as he got. I'm sure he was a real nice guy, obviously simple, but a nice guy to believe the story his wife gave him, bless him.
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John D. Partin
Probably, you and other men here have wives that you can't trust as far as you can throw them about ordinary things, and so if they told you that they had children by the Holy Ghost (which only happened once and wouldn't happen to faithless people, anyway, and you wouldn't believe, again, even if it did happen!), you wouldn't believe them even more!! But, since you know nothing about sanctity or even believe that it exists, you also don't know anything about the veracity of saints' statements. You are judging saints by your own standard and self, when you shouldn't even be judging other ordinary people by yourself, and your evaluation of saints' statements and actions fit them far less than they do other people and, in fact, don't fit them at all!! You erroneously believe that "Mary lied to Joseph about an affair or just sexual intercourse that she had with another man and told him that her pregnancy was the result of the Holy Spirit's coming upon her, to con him and avoid being stoned for adultery" because that is what worldly and ungodly women would have done, if they could con their way out of it. You can't understand the guilt that lying about that would have caused a holy woman, which is why she would never have lied about it, just because some other women have no problem with lying, and so can't understand her thinking and mindset at all!! That is falsely applying your standards where they don't fit and because you don't understand or believe in saintly thinking and acting, but that is generalization about human nature and denying even the possibility of some people's being raised above this general human thinking and acting by God's lifting them higher, since you don't believe in God, either. You can't understand the honesty of Mary and other saints when they tell other people the truth of what they have experienced and seen and heard from God, but your not understanding or believing them doesn't prove that they didn't see or hear or experience those things. The visionaries of Fatima, Medjugorje, Lourdes, Garabandal, Knock, Kibeho, and other Marian apparition sites actually had their visions, despite all deniers' and unbelievers' doubts, as proven by their consistency and firmness and the miracle of the Sun and other attesting signs and miracles, which are stronger proofs of them than all of the weak arguments of atheists and scoffers against them!!
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John D. Partin
Also, Mary wouldn't have had sex with another man or told a lie about the Holy Spirit's overshadowing her and giving her a child, which wasn't a lie, because she was a holy woman and just wouldn't have done that, and because that story wouldn't have been believed, anyway, by the Jews, who would have still thought that she had had sex with another man. So, there would have been no point to her making up a story that wouldn't be believed, and, therefore, she was telling the truth about the Holy Spirit's overshadowing her and giving her a child. Your not believing that there is "any possibility that that happened" and its not happening are two entirely different and polar opposite things. "All things are possible with God" and "There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy".
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JaZe
The myth of the hero Mitras, very popular among roman legions, went that he was born of a virgin mother and was born around December 25. A bit of spin by the early bible writers to attract and convert put it that Jesus too etc. Recent research puts Jesus birth around March/April ie in the spring when any snow (it snows in those areas too) had melted and shepherds were taking their sheep out to feed on snow free grass.
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Robin Murray
Actually it is well known and proven that Jesus was born in the late fall most likely September. The inns were full because it was the feast of tabernacles that week. The Romans took the census at the same time, also the flocks were still in the pastures then as well. Constantine changed Christ's birth to December 25 to allow him to unite the pagan tribes in Europe under Christianity. He allowed them to keep the Festival of lights which is the winter solstice celebration and called it Christmas. Nice and tidy as killing 2 birds with one stone as they say. To this day we have an evergreen tree and decorate it with lights just like the pagans. The sad part is since the Bible has been translated dozens of times and copied ad absurdum, the Biblical facts are at best suspect and under the control of the Roman Catholic Church. That is why the Dead Sea Scrolls were so important. They had copies of the original scriptures before they were changed. I think too much emphasis is put on minute facts instead of concentrating on his message.
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Nicholas J Page
Black white green purple does it really matter.Why has it taken years to come to this.Its like BLM All lives matter fact. Rev Nick Page UK
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Rev Mark D
Any Norse or germanic white woman and man would have cooked into a cinder in that desert sun. So you tell me.
And besides, you wouldn't say that if you had been in any USA Christian home, and church (sometimes even the black churches) where like as not you will find on a wall a picture of the very white tall slim flowing-haired narrow headed blonde blue eyed Jesus...never a black (or indian, or asian) one with stubbly, nappy hair, Turkish or Greek or African complexion and black eyes.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
As your psychiatrist would tell you, Nicholas, "It's really not something to get upset about".
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
When you get off those hallucinogens Nicholas, you will realize that those green and purple people you've seen were not from this planet.
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Gail Dobson
We create our gods in our own likeness. This just another example. The story was refined over centuries to be what many dfifferent versions of "christians" claim today. It is still just a story.
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Dr. Jerry Moyes
The hjstoric conclusuons and artist renderings in the article are dead on; there can be no question.
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Rev Mark D
Exactly. Syrian it Turkish or North African who can handle a Mediterranean desert sun... If the traditional picture of flowing blonde hair, narrow long-headed blue-eyed white Norse or Germanic that you find in most Christian homes in North and South America are plausible, and so is an Asian, and you don't see them around either pictured as Christ.)
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Rev Mark D
Exactly. Syrian it Turkish or North African who can handle a Mediterranean desert sun... If the traditional picture of flowing blonde hair, narrow long-headed blue-eyed white Norse or Germanic that you find in most Christian homes in North and South America are plausible, and so is an Asian, and you don't see them around either pictured as Christ.)
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Reverend Gary
WHITEWASH!
Really? It is incredulous that anyone cares! You all should be ashamed of yourselves and if you do not know the REAL reason why, you will be forever doomed to remain unknowing who you really are.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
You are obviously white which is why you do not care. If you were black, brown, yellow, red or any color other than white you would care. Whites just don't want to admit Jesus, the son of God was black.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Christians are always ashamed of themselves, Gary. There's no such thing as a guilt free Christian.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Jews invented guilt. Christians canonized it.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Li go hten up, Gary! They don't give us a choice, but hand us whatever they want to, and expect us to discuss it. I guess they think that it's making us better ministers to discuss wierd topics. They atleast help teach us to have more patience and tolerance of others. And we need something to talk about, to keep us from being bored shitless!
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Timothy Holland Sr
One thing I can say Jesus Christ is Lord.
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Rev Nolan
Of what?
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Rev Mark D
Exactly.
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Benjamin Carter Medley
hi guys
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Maybe he was referring to the House of Lords. So Jesus really is English, eh? That would explain why he's white in all those pictures. His parents must have migrated to Bethlehem. "Jolly good show, ol' chap"!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
No Nolan, what's on first, who's on second...
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Brittan has a house of Lords and a lot of lords.
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Robert Edward Szekely
"Britain" (sp). House of Lords and House of Commons.
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Lionheart
Timothy, I too have the title of Lord, and have the Title documentation to prove it. The title came with some land I own in Scotland. The title of Lord doesn’t really mean a lot, so I rarely mention it, but it’s nice to have the same honorific as Lord Krishna, and other members from the House of Lords in the UK.
🦁❤️
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John D. Partin
Except that Jesus' Lordship is far higher than a political or land title, even if you don't believe that there is anything higher than political or land titles, since you don't believe in a lot of true things, anyway. So, you aren't the same kind of exalted Lord that Jesus is. Time, after all, isn't divided into "Pre-Lion" and "Post-Lion", as it is for Christ in B.C. and A.D. and last time that I checked you don't have a religion and holiday named after you, as Christ does in Christianity and Christmas, as hard as that is for your greatly overblown ego to accept!! People call themselves and are called by others titles all the time and, as even you said, "the title of Lord doesn't really mean a lot", especially for you and your ilk. There were even several false "Popes" or anti-Popes in history. So, you aren't even the same kind of Lord that Krishna or other members of the House of Lords are, especially about a title that you admit doesn't mean a lot, as opposed to how those Lords feel about their titles, except, again, in your unjustified ego and opinion about yourself!! As I told you before, come down off yourself and have far more humility than you do right now, which isn't showing in your comparing yourself to Christ, Krishna or even English Lords!!!
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Lionheart
🎣 🤣
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Russell Hjelm
My understanding, although I'm not going to fall on my sword over this, is that much of the effort to paint Jesus in the image of Europeans was precisely part of the effort to strip Him of His Jewishness. The prevailing attitude was that the Jews killed Jesus and were, therefore, evil. We are still being impacted by this centuries long denial of Jewish foundations of Jesus and of Christianity itself.
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Rev Mark D
One galling thing about that is the idea that this was all God's plan. Every bit of it. Thus, why blame Jews for what God intentionally made happen?
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JaZe
hmmm God's plan? how much is put into teachings to make everyone feel guilty all the time? Even the idea of karma which is integrated in the bible by some other description, keeps the yoke on. Karma are learning opportunities and so is human life on this planet at least not punishment.
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Rev Mark D
If he was of the line of Abrahamic extraction, he would have been Syrian, the tribe having migrated from Syria. At the time there was no such thing as "Palestinean" in the modern sense at all. Add intermarriages over the interim of perhaps a thousand years of regional social mixing into his line and mixed perhaps with others through the intervening years, remembering whatever population mixings, movements, invasions, in-migrations during that time, requires consideration of a labelling that is not political and only with cultural archaeological and anthropolical scientific evidence, if not genetic (generally genetic is not available and most "gene" banks today are really extractions of "cultures," i.e., linguistic and archaeological linguistic and relic patterns through time. If one wants to get into "race," African, Syrian, Iranian, Meditteranean would be the major sources of genetic material.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
No, he was a lord, Mark. So, he must have been English.
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Philip Joseph Ryan
Many people in the Middle East have the same pallor as Western Europeans, because they don't spend all day out in the sun, so this tiresome attempt to blackwash everything, is the usual racist micro-aggression against the white races. Clearly, it's the work of the Devil.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
And Phillip, don't forget to include that the devil is red, has horns, a pointed tail, and carries a pitch fork.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
And don't forget that the ancient Arabian tribe of the Moores did not only conquer, invade, and inhabit Cicily, Crete, and part of Spain, but other places too. Guess what color the Moores were, and what contenant the country of Arabia is on. No Philip, I haven't met anyone yet from that part of the world who white, or considered themselves to be. And I have known many.
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Rev Mark D
Well Philip, you may just be right, and here's how we know: ever look at the bottom of a black person's feet? Their soles? They are white as you and me. So that proves that Africans were originally white. Back before original sin probably. They must have done something really bad to get painted black everywhere you can see them.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Why no mention of Adam and Eve? As we all know Adam and Eve would have been black or had very dark skin. Jesus, Mary and Joseph by American standard would have been considered black but with a lighter skin tone than Adam and Eve.
Adam, Eve, Jesus, Mary, Joseph and God only became white when the Christians churches funded the arts and paintings over the past 600 years or so. Paintings were the MTV of the middle ages. They told stories.
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Rev. B
Comment removed by user.
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Bryan Bauman
Only Satan would be bringing this kind of division in people and fools getting involved in those arguments. What’s important is everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus came and paid the price for everyone’s sins and we are to turn to him and spread the word that all can be saved and see him in heaven. In Revelation Jesus is described as a bright light per the apostle John.
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Rev Nolan
I disagree respectfully because you are basing your opinion on your private interpretation of Scripture with no context of history and actual meaning. For example, in Jewish tradition death and resurrection refers to conviction and escape from execution of a vile criminal. Without this context, people using modern thinking take death and resurrection of Jesus as a literal event, but that’s not how it would be understood in his day.
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Amber Fry
I think it goes a little farther than just a private interpretation. Holy men have misinterpreted and peached things as more literal for several hundred years before most people could even read it for themselves. Oddly enough many seem to forget the majority of his life happened in the middle east and North Africa, kind of hard to find lighter skinned people in those areas 1500-2000 years ago.
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Daniel Gray
Nope. All I am saying is God looks like what you think he looks like. So who exactly is it hurting if a person thinks God looks like them? And how you got from what God looks like to the resurrection is not only a major leap, but its a twisted one as one does not have anything to do with the other.
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John D. Partin
Rev. Nolan, why would the body of Jesus have been put into a tomb provided by Joseph of Arimathea, as stated in the Gospels, if, according to you, he escaped execution and a "living man was placed in a tomb"?!! That doesn't make any kind of sense!! Concerning your earlier post, why are you believing a report when you admit that you don't remember the details of it any longer that, supposedly, said that "Jesus looked like Joseph", and why shouldn't we doubt a report that you aren't even sure about?!! As for "the true story of Simon the Cyrene's being crucified and Jesus' escaping crucifixion", what is your source for that story and where does it come from or do we just have to gullibly take your word for it?!! Because the actual Gospel story that we have says that Jesus, not Simon the Cyrene, died on the Cross, and Jesus was buried in the tomb. Also, why would the Apostles have seen Jesus resurrected if He had never died and how could they have been hopeless and frightened because of Jesus' leaving them alone or made bold preachers of Jesus' resurrection if He hadn't died and they hadn't seen it for themselves, and "had made it all up"?!! That supposition of yours and other people's here also doesn't make any sense!!!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
I haven't sinned.
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flugo
Either you are a liar, or the Bible is in error when t says 'All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.' Which is it, 'Spin'?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Everyone lies and the bible is full of errors. But the Bible was written in the past before I was born so it doesn't apply to me and he present.
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John D. Partin
Douglas Robert Spindler, is it only the Bible because it was written in the past before you were born that you say "doesn't apply to you and the present" or is it everything else that was written in the past before you were born?!! Does the Constitution also not apply to you and the present because it was written in the past before you were born?!! Do "Love your neighbor as yourself", "Love one another as I have loved you", "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you", "Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you have done it unto me", "Thou shalt not kill", "God is spirit and all who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth", and many other very wise teachings and books and documents also not apply to you and the present because they were said or written in the past?!! It makes no difference when any right and wise thing was said or written, since the passage of time doesn't make it any less right and wise!!!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
I agree with you completely. Just as the constitution has amendments, are you trying to so does the Bible? That would be Book of Mormon, correct?
What about the versus in the Bible where it says to be selfish and own of slaves? Is that something you believe?
The Bible has a lot of things wrong, starting with Genesis. Thanks to a brilliant Belgium Priest who should Einstein was wrong he proved the God got it all wrong when it came to the first six days of creation.
If you do not believe the Book of Mormon is an amendment to the Bible, and you know parts of the Bible are wrong how do you know what parts of the Bible to believe and what not to believe. And how do you know the Book of Mormon is God's amendment to the Bible?
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John D. Partin
Douglas Robert Spindler, I'm not talking about The Book of Mormon, which I consider to be a con game and false "scripture" cooked up by Joseph Smith to get followers, money, and power, as is usually or just always the case with religious con artists!! There is fraud also in the Bible, when it puts human words into God's mouth and falsely attributes actions or commands to Him, in order to "justify" the Bible writers who did that to Him. We can know what is from God and what is from men in the Bible by seeing God's known character of love and concern for us, which is proven by life's even being possible on the Earth through His control of the universe and its laws making that possible, and so only love in the Bible is from God and all hate, racism, killings, and other evils are from men. Problem solved!! God wouldn't be doing all of this work to make life even possible here and then turn right around and destroy this same life that He is trying to keep going!! That would be inconsistent and self-contradictory!! "God is love" is the truth about God in the Bible and Him speaking about Himself! "Love one another as I have loved you", "Love your neighbor as yourself", "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you", and "Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you have done it unto me" are God's teachings for us in the Bible, which these killings and rotten commands don't follow, and so those killings and rotten commands in the Bible aren't from God!! Case closed!!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
John D. Partin Why do discount the book of Mormon as being a con-game and not think it's an amendment to the Bible. Just how do you know? And if you are so quick to say the Book of Mormon is false scripture how do you know the Bible isn't as well? Just as the Book of Mormon was written by man, so was the Bible.
Are you trying to tell me the Catholics aren't pulling in billions of dollar like the Mormons?
If God created all powerful and all mighty why is it when he created the universe he got it all wrong when it came to recording it in the Bible?
I invite you to do some research to see just how many fetuses God kills every year in the form of spontaneous abortions. If God loves the product of his creation so much why does he allow millions of women, children and men to be killed. There was the European Holocaust. Where was God? Then there's the the American Holocaust. The Soviet Holocaust. And now we are just learning about the Japanese Holocaust. How could a caring loving God allow the systematic rape and torture of so many innocent women and children. If you thought the German's were inhumane, take a look at what God allowed the Japanese to do to the Dutch women and children. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0B9fE-XxOQ&ab_channel=WarStorieswithMarkFelton
The case is not closed and has just opened.
I really hope you tell me how you know which scripture is a can and which one is not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0B9fE-XxOQ&ab_channel=WarStorieswithMarkFelton
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John D. Partin
Douglas Robert Spindler, I know, as do all other people who can think and actually think about it, that the Book of Mormon is a fraud and con game, and that the Bible isn't a fraud or con game, because the Book of Mormon came out in the early 1800s, under the connivance of Joseph Smith, while the Bible was dictated to inspired prophets of God back 3,000 years ago up to 2,000 years ago, who didn't have any prospects of or interests in making money from it, but only to reveal the will of God, as best as they could. That is the difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, and it makes a world of difference!!! Nowadays, of course, corrupted and worldly Catholic Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, and some Popes in the past were blind and only thought or think about money and material gain and power, but that isn't Christianity or what the Church was ever meant to be or how it started, and you asked me about the difference between the Book of Mormon and the Bible!! Both were written by men, but only the Bible was inspired by God, whereas the Book of Mormon was inspired by Joseph Smith's egotism and desire for money and power!! The Bible isn't false Scripture, as a whole, though there are words and actions in it that were just put into God's mouth and falsely ascribed to Him, because of the love, truth, mercy, forgiveness, and holiness found in it outside of those human ideas in the Bible, as I have said before. People don't get even what other people are saying right all the time, and so how could they possibly get what God is saying right all the time? That doesn't mean that what is right in the Bible should be just lumped in with what is bad in it, and the baby thrown out with the bathwater. God doesn't kill any fetuses. Corrupted nature kills fetuses. God isn't going to force people to love and do right and avoid doing wrong, in the Japanese Holocaust or German Holocaust or Soviet Holocaust or Abortion Holocaust or any other one or the rest of the time because that would be His taking free will away from people and making that decision for them, which He wants them to make for themselves!! Citing instances of Man's inhumanity to man to me does no good, which I know about as well as you do. As George Burns playing God in "Oh, God!" said to John Denver when he asked how he could permit all the suffering in the world: "Ah, how can I permit the suffering? I don't permit the suffering. You do. Free will. All the choices are yours. You can love each other, cherish and nurture each other, or you can kill each other. Incidentally, 'kill' is the word. It's not waste. If I meant 'waste', I would have written 'Thou shalt not waste'. You're doing some very funny things with words here. You're also turning the sky into mud. I look down, I can't believe the filth. Using the rivers for toilets, poisoning my fishes. You want a miracle? You make a fish from scratch. You can't. You think only God can make a tree.Try coming up with a mackerel. And when the last one is gone, that'll be that! Eighty six on the fishes, goodbye sky, so long world, over and out".
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Douglas Robert Spindler
John D. Partin just how is it you know the Book of Mormon is a fraud? You are obviously mistaken when you say, " I know, as do all other people who can think and actually think about it, that the Book of Mormon is a fraud and con game," There are over 16 million Morons and they are one of the fastest growing religions in the world.
If you want people to believe what you have to say, you should use facts and not exaggerate.
And just how do you know the Bible is the word of God?
We know it's filled with false information and untruth statements? The Bible is also filed with filth. This is why so many young people today are turning away from the Christion religion.
You do know man has created synthetic life. God is not the only one who can create life, so can man.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
It says it as clear as day flu, in the song Spirit In The Sky. " I've never sinned. I'm not a dinner. I've got a friend in Jesus"! I'm quoting a Holy rock n roll song, flugo, and you can't argue with that!
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Lionheart
Of course the Bible is in error, right from the beginning of its fantasy tale of how the earth was formed, to what it thinks was the beginning of mankind….and then later on in the fable we have a story of a virgin woman giving birth to a child from a deity. This child is then not heard about until it’s older when it’s supposedly walking on water and changing water into Merlot. It’s laughable isn’t it? 🤷🏼
If it happened today, I doubt few would believe the stories, but I’m sure there would be some who were gullible enough to believe it and have progenitors write about it decades later. That’s how Mormonism started, some believed Joseph Smith saw God, many didn’t. Some believed Mohammed was a prophet of God, and some didn’t. Some still believe in Thor, or Vishnu, or Krishna.
It’s amazing how people like to believe handed down folk tales/stories with no factual evidence are real isn’t it, even to the point of killing one another if you don’t believe in their tales?
🦁❤️
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flugo
'lying fart': 'folk tales/fables with no factual evidence' you erroneously say. The Bible plainly established precedents, sometimes centuries before 'modern' science 'discovered' some of these practices.
Leviticus17:11,14 the necessity of blood for life. long before the faulty practice of 'bloodletting' was popular
Deuteronomy 23:12 The proper disposal of people poop.
Numbers 19:11,12 Germs were found to be carriers of disease
Genesis 6:15 Shipbuilders today use the same length/width/height proportions as did Noah and the ark
Leviticus 13:46 The importance of quarantining ill people was used
Leviticus 11:7-8 Food regulations implemented then are still considered today
You must be either ignorant, deceptive, or gullible in order to peddle your faulty diatribes.
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Lionheart
Numbers 22:30
The donkey said to to Balaam: Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you? 🤣🤣🤣
Just in case you are not understanding, this is a "donkey" speaking, flugo. It's amazing what some people believe what they read isn't it.
flugo.....did you know that Jesus Christ was going to be named Brian? That was until Mary stubbed her toe on the desk at the registry office just as she was giving his name.
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Rev. B
I thought Brian was the child in the next manger over.
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Rev. B
Sin is a man-made concept sprung from the pages of the big magic book. No, you have not sinned. Sin does not exist because it came from a book of fairy tales.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Sin was created by the Church to control people and for the church to make money. It's a complete scam. They vast majority of people who commit "sins" go unpunished and are sometimes rewarded. People have realized "sin" was and is used to oppress people. It's not working any more which is why people aren't religious any more. This last year has been the largest drops in people considering themselves to be religious.
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Minister Jim
In all reality; it comes down to no matter what color they were; Jesus died on the cross for all our sins and if we truly believe in him we will have everlasting life in HEAVEN. AMEN. I hope you all get that concept and we all will be in Heaven Together. Merry Christmas to all our Brothers and Sisters.
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Lionheart
Well Jim, the Bible is after all a very interesting set of stories. Interestingly put together, but tends to drift into hallucinatory dialog at the end when it gets to Revelations, which is hardly surprising being as that chapter was written on the Isle of Patmos, very well known for it's magic mushrooms....and still is as a matter of fact. Anyway, I digress, there is actually no demonstrable evidence that many of the stories/tales are true, but interesting nonetheless. Personally, I prefer the Harry Potter books. The story line is far more interesting, and a much better read for children, with no hell and damnation ending if you don't believe it. Thank you anyway, and Merry Christmas to my Christian friends, Happy Hanukkah to my Jewish friends, Happy Yule to my Pagan/Wiccan friends, and Happy Holidays to my secular friends. Stay safe and healthy everyone.
🦁♥️
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Rev Nolan
When a Sanhedrin recorded his search for Jesus, the details of which I no longer remember, he stated that Jesus was homely looking like Joseph. If that report is verifiably true, then chances are that Joseph was actually the biological father of Jesus, which in turn would be like an assault on The Immaculate Conception doctrine of Christianity.
As for the story of Jesus on the cross, the true story ends with Simon the Cyrene stepping in for Jesus and Jesus escaping execution.
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Susan Christine Giganti
The word homely is Middle English, meaning plain or ordinary. So that translation of the Sanhedrin mist have been done by someone from Great Britain or the Isles.
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Timothy Holland Sr
Amen, Glory to the Lamb 🐑 of God
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Robert Edward Szekely
The point of this is how Jesus the man, that is, the human incarnation would have appeared, pre-crucifixion. His name back then would have been Yeshua ben Yosef, or "Joshua, son of Joseph". Once you look beyond the biblical hagiography and start doing a little anthropological research, these things start to become evident.
"Jesus" is the Latinized form of Joshua. "Yeshua" is the Hebracized version. Since the Bible already had one Joshua....
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
So, are you saying that Jesus (by any name) was a different color post crucifixion, Robert?
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Robert Edward Szekely
No, it means that when, where, and it what context He chose to incarnate helped Him to determine how he would appear.
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CTF
And this is why we have CAT scans. You should get one - they’re fantastic - and unlike some writings - the results can be proven real.
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Robert Edward Szekely
I think you may have taken a wrong turn somewhere, as your comment has no bearing on this discussion.
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Robert Edward Szekely
I think you may have taken a wrong turn somewhere, as your comment has no bearing on this discussion.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Comment has been removed.
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woodardenterprises
Jesus comes from an area that is NOT WHITE, PERIOD!!! And the artist that initially painted the picture of "JESUS" painted his boyfriend at the time! OUR WHITE people DECIDED they would "push" that off as the image of JESUS. If people understood history, the Bible, the origin of where Jesus comes from, you'd know Jesus WAS NOT WHITE, IN THE LEAST! And for SOME OF OUR WHITE people, they WILL BE VERY disturbed to see who is sending them to hell. And that person won't be looking like them. So they won't get away with crap like Rittenhouse. No false tears will suffice.
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Rev Nolan
No, it’s not okay to whitewash the three because we find ourselves in the White Supremacy Twilight Zone. Jesus came with a message in the Middle East for a reason, so to understand His message, we need to understand the circumstances and culture of that place and time, which does not always translate into modern thinking.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
no he didn't come into the Middle East for any other reason then it was the cradle of religious belief. He Chose the Jews who happen to be caucasion. Color doesn't matter. Light or dark. White Supremacy. Always bring up the racist bs.
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Angela L Walker
You really need to do your research? (It will blow your mind) The true Jews where black! And your right race really don't matter.. We are one in (Christ Jesus) Yahweh his true name
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Robin Murray
The original Jewish people were not Black, but Middle eastern. This has been proven by tracing the root languages of Hebrew. Jesus most probably looked like any Palestinian or Syrian since his parents were from Nazareth located in Present day Northern Israel. While technically they are classified as Caucasian, they would not be "white" as we think of present day whites, but like indigenous people from that area who are darker skinned. The "white" Jesus came from all of the Italian artists the Catholic church paid to paint their version of Jesus. People need to get past worrying about what color he was and worry about following his message.
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Amber Fry
Actually, Keith, even the bible pinpoints his birth to be in the middle east with his parents on their way to comply with a Roman ordered census. They were likely quite dark skinned. It isn't a matter of racism so much as noting honest nationality. If one cannot be honest in religion and the figures who were responsible for it then what's the point of following it in the first place?
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David Cox
He is Jewish
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Robin Anne Hannon
Keith what makes you think Jews were Caucasian in the time of Jesus? They were all from the Middle East and were Sephardic. Askenazi or white Jews came about after the diaspora.
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Rev. Jean-Anasthase
The only message of Jesus, whatever could be his skin is
"Love God in truth and spirit, and others like yourself". "They will recognize you at the manner you love each other..."
What cultural facts could change that ?
Rev. Jean-Anasthase.
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JaZe
Those paintings were idealized versions.
I noticed years ago that images/paintings of Ascended Masters are very alike - blondish, white skin, blue eyes - with one or two exceptions. I pointed that out only to be met with a frown and 'no they dont look alike' although the 12 images on display WERE clearly alike. 🙄😑
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CB Cuff
.... and maybe some of those historians can tell us how the scribes came up with Joe and Mary. Sound pretty Western to me.
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Lady Celynia
Joseph and Mary are Anglicized versions of Yosef and Miriam.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
....yada, yada, yada!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
And would Yosef's nickname be Yo Yo? Try rocking the cradle or walking the dog with that. No thankyou. I'll stick with my Duncan.
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Lady Celynia
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Shango MasterExorcist, D.D.
Jesus would have had the same skin color as his father, IF his father had skin, IF the name "Jesus" existed back then.
If an artist corrected he skin color and picked a name that could have existed back then, nobody would know who it was a picture of.
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Rev Mark D
You saying Jesus didn't have skin?
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Shango MasterExorcist, D.D.
Never heard of that theory. The letter "J" did not exist back then, and the "S" on the end is a part of British grammar that no longer exists. If he was one particular person rather than a story mixed up with the many other Jews who were healers back then, he would have probably been black, and had a name like Eshua.
However, artists impressions are painted to create the best religious feeling they are inspired to make. If you feel more religious with a White Jesus instead of a Black Eshua, go right ahead.
Others feel more spiritual if their divinities have no human form. Excellent for them, this is the Universal Life Church, lets experience life in the entire universe.
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John P Maher
HEY SHANGO, YOUR POST GIVES ME MUCHO THOUGHT, THANK YOU !
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Rev Mark D
Shango, Jesus is a late latinization (Roman) of the original Hebrew, which was Yeshua (Joshua) (Yusef in Arabic) (Joseph in English). Mary is also a latinization for Miriam. D'uh.
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Benjamin Carter Medley
Just because the letter "j" didn't exist in English (because English didn't exist), doesn't mean it wasn't in Hebrew. Jesus would actually be spelt יֵשׁוּעַ.
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Daniel Gray
WHO FREAKING CARES? If Chinese want him to look like them, or the Blacks want him to look like them or the arabs want him to look like them or the whites want him to look like them or the Native Americans want him to look like them and be dressed in buckskins, who exactly is to say that they are wrong? Some people think that Christ was a woman and thats ok as well. Your deity is in the eye of the beholder and looks like what you want him or her to look like. Why bring up a fuss like this thread that benefits no one?
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Rev Nolan
I care because the message of the Messenger is affected by circumstances (history) and culture of that time and place. The reason Christianity is so discombobulated with factions upon factions, hypocrisy, and incongruous doctrines is because Christians approach their religion and scripture from their understanding of “current” affairs and culture rather than the perspective of the Messenger’s time and place in history. I could be more detailed in what I’m trying to convey, but I think you get my point.
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Daniel Gray
yea I do, and your "point" is nothing more then your OPINION!! Who exactly is it hurting if an asian person believes Christ looks like him? Absolutely nobody. So again it hurts no one except the one who willingly take offense.
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Rev Nolan
I respectfully disagree because, if a Messenger of The Almighty Algorithm were Chinese or any other race (and I believe there were some as a believer in Progressive Revelation), there would be a reason for the Message coming in that time, place, and culture. To represent Jesus as any other race than Middle Easterner would completely discombobulate his Message as would be the case with any Messenger of The Almighty Algorithm from any other time, place, or culture. While representing Jesus as a race other than what he actually was won’t hurt anyone, it would certainly discombobulate The Message as we see in Christianity’s white Jesus religions.
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Daniel Gray
And can you say it didnt come to others cultures? Or is that just your opinion?
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Rev Nolan
Quite the contrary. As I stated, 1. I believe in progressive revelation and 2. I believe that God as you call It sent messengers to most cultures and races, and 3. had a reason for sending the message in that language, at that teim and place, and to that people. As for Jesus as a messenger, I absolutely believe that a Middle Easterner looks like a Middle Easterner, just as a Caucasian looks like a Caucasian, a Negro looks like a Negro, an Asian looks like an Asian, etc.
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Rev Nolan
Quite the contrary. As I stated, 1. I believe in progressive revelation and 2. I believe that God as you call It sent messengers to most cultures and races, and 3. had a reason for sending the message in that language, at that teim and place, and to that people. As for Jesus as a messenger, I absolutely believe that a Middle Easterner looks like a Middle Easterner, just as a Caucasian looks like a Caucasian, a Negro looks like a Negro, an Asian looks like an Asian, etc.
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Daniel Gray
quite the contrary yourself. There is no description on what God is supposed to look like so what harm is there in each person deciding an image they are comfortable with? I am sure that God does not care what people think he looks like (just that they believe in him)
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Rev Nolan
What God looks like? I don’t believe anyone knows that. I thought we were talking about what Jesus looks like.
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Daniel Gray
So I guess you would feel the same and try and correct a Buddhist for saying the head of their religion is a fat bald chinese guy?, Or the Indians who believe in a multi armed blue skinned monster with fangs and a necklace of skulls, or that one of their ancestors is a cow and thats why they dont eat them? Religion is personal so again who cares what you think God or jesus looks like, That isnt the point. Follow the teachings and do unto others as you would have them do unto you
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Michael Orlo Davis
Ok. My thoughts are not really the issue but think of this: one will know when one needs to know. Our loving God and His son our Savior will seek us out in the time of our Salvation.
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Rev Mark D
Okay Nolan so if I can ask, what would be the need or the function of this progressive algorithm? Is it that every group needs to have their own messenger, because tending toward wanting to own things as we do, looks would be the basis for a sense of possessiveness, he's ours not yours, so every discernible group that we would tend to differentiate on whatever basis, in this case color, as US versus them, therefore each needs to get their own messenger?
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Rev Nolan
It’s not an “us v. them” matter. It depends on the needs of the time and what culture, group, or society is best equipped to communicate and manifest the incoming revelation. The Almighty Algorithm determines everything related to that.
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Stephen E. Goll
I believe the idea of what Jesus looked like is irrelevant. He is Jesus. Period.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Regardless of their ethnicity I bet the whole Christ family was butt ugly.
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Daniel Gray
stop imposing your family's looks on someone else.
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Actually, is it not true that Judas had to identify Jesus to the arresting guards? - Was this not because Jesus appeared differently to different people ? Yup, that about answers that now doesn't it..