Talk:Balthus

Biographies

"Biographers rushed into print shortly after his death, and their work has since been severely and widely criticised as being unreasonable and confused."

This is a rather sweeping statement with no sources. Which biographies? and by whom? ----

The statements refers to Nicholas Weber's biography of the artist, i think. Anchorite 21:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

--Biographers means plural. Fox Weber is only one. Also there's no back up or reference for who did the "severe" and "wide" criticism. This statement surely should be removed.

--I've removed this line.

Too bad. If you ever followed overall criticism of the biographies that came out immediately after Balthus' death, you'd see they were indeed severely criticized, especially the one by Weber. Who did that? NY Times, for one, and many other leading publications. Should we dig out sources to defend the statement? - sure, why not. Is it really worth it? No. Anchorite 14:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The Weber biography was published several years before Balthus died, in 1999. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Katharine Weber (talk • contribs) 04:38, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Illustrations

Since the article discusses The Guitar Lesson should not the painting be part of the article? Haiduc 04:43, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think so, a picture is definitely worth a thousand circumlocutary words here in explaining the tension between eroticism, discomfort, and reference. However, adding it will certainly be controversial. Should we seek guidance first? Subsolar 08:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Ancestral Debates

The section quotes extensively from Weber's book, and basically repeats the authors assertions, which are not really relevant to the person of Balthus, but more so to the person of author, Nicholas Weber. When you read the book, you notice that the author has fallen out with Balthus on the personal level pretty much soon after gaining private access to the artist. The remainder of the book was written without consent, permission, or collaboration with the artist. Weber makes numerous mistakes about Eastern European geography, genealogy, and heraldry as it pertains to the ancestral debates. I'd be extremely cautious quoting ANYTHING that he ascribes to Balthus, as Balthus' real words. Anchorite 14:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Given this, I have removed the "French Jews" and "Polish Jews" categories. —Ashley Y 08:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The Jewish controversy is a minor issue, at most, and a non-issue in the opinion of many. It does not merit an entire section that is longer than most of those describing Balthus's work. I recommend severe pruning, and relocation of relevant material to Early life. Sam Weller (talk) 15:17, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

On name change

Is there any advantage moving article name from Balthus to Balthasar Kłossowski de Rola when the artist was and remains known internationally as Balthus? You'll rarely find anyone typing Jean-Baptiste Poquelin in a search for Molière, for example. Jumbolino (talk) 23:37, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

"Balthus" better satisfies WP:NAMEPEOPLE. This move probably should not have been done without discussion; I've moved it back. Ewulp (talk) 02:45, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with keeping Balthus as the article, and redirecting to it. But there is no reason to move the talkpage also. A redirect article should retain its own talkpage, for possible future discussion of the best redirect target, and any other matters (development of disambiguation pages, etc.). Accordingly, I have removed the redirect from Talk:Balthasar Kłossowski de Rola. I have also removed double redirects from Balthasar Klossowski de Rola, and another one. They now redirect straight to Balthus. And I have made redirects from Klossowski de Rola, etc.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 03:45, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! You're right about the talk page. Ewulp (talk) 04:40, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Why is every artist and musician on the planet attributed with Jewish ancestry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pezzos (talk • contribs) 04:22, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Antoinette de Watteville

What happened to her? Did she die? Did they get divorced? Was bigamy allowed in Switzerland back then? The article simply mentions Balthus married Antoinette de Watteville, and then, a few paragraphs later, that he had a 'second wife.' The meaning is ambiguous. Dbutler1986 (talk) 04:00, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

C-Class

As it stands, the quality of this article is nearer C-Class than B-Class (too much still remains confused, poorly organised, superficial, and riddled with biased and unsourced personal research behind it). That said, I admire those editors who've contributed their time and research (objective) to building up this article on a fascinating and important painter. May they continue to do so. --Jumbolino (talk) 13:04, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

B-class review

For WP:POLAND: failed due to insufficient inline cites. See also comments by Jumbolino above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:41, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Polish-French?

He was not born in Poland. He was born in France to Polish parents, and the article doesn't mention any significant connection to Poland, other than an unreferenced claim he was really fond of his Polish family coat of arms. I have serious doubts this justifies calling him Polish-French. Pl wikipedia just calls him a French artist. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:45, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Pedophilia lacuna

Since the pedophilia issue is the one most commonly associated, at least in the popular mind, with Balthus, it is strange to find so little discussion of it here. The article appears to be more or less a paste from The Art and Popular Culture Encyclopedia, the original of which, however, rightly includes the issue in its introduction. Consider:"Today, there is no question that Balthus was a pedophile.” - Christian Viveros-Faune Village Voice Oct 16, 2013 https://www.villagevoice.com/arts/ol-dirty-master-the-discomforts-of-balthus-7184300 Orthotox (talk) 01:30, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Seriously. "Erotically charged paintings of pubescent girls"? I tried to changed the first two words to "pedophilic," but I got blocked by a filter telling me my change was "unhelpful." I seriously have to wonder about the motivations of the creators/editors/maintainers of this page. Given the seriousness of child sexual abuse, I am not amenable to being dismissed as "violating good faith" on this subject. VasyaPetrovna (talk) 12:20, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Even if he wasn't creepy, it does feel very abusive in that Anna was 8, Therese was 11, they may not have wanted to be painted in these poses, (even if it is interpreted that the pose is innocently done by the character in the painting, the artist seems to have designed it to invite voyeurism, and anyway Balthus says the paintings are about child sexuality, although he also said they were innocent) or even if they did want to pose they might not have been aware of the implications being forever associated with these infamous paintings. It feels like forcing sexuality onto them. Would he have painted prepubescent boys like this? Also, if the poses done by the characters are meant to be consciously erotic, it feels uncomfortable that an adult male artist wants to contemplate juvenile female sexual awakening to the extent of painting it lots of times, with real child models, and inviting adult viewers to look. Can links be added discussing these issues? And I think his child models were interviewed - if they didn't mind and didn't feel he was creepy that puts a different light on it. It still feels wrong as they couldn't fully understand the ramifications, (and why did their parents agree?), but if he was a creep they would probably have sensed it, although maybe not. 92.40.9.136 (talk) 17:17, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

It seems ridiculous that I have to write 'creepy' and can't just use the 'P' word, but that's disruptive editing rules! 92.40.9.136 (talk) 17:18, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I've got a bit more info on the model for The Guitar Lesson. One source says it was Laurence Bataille, 17 at the time, daughter of Sylvia Bataille the actress. Another source says it was the daughter of a janitor from a poor neighbourhod, that she didn't want to pose half nude but did it so her mother could have some money, and that her mother was present the whole time. These stories conflict a lot , and which one is true really affects how we judge Balthus. Another fact is that Therese Blanchard died at only 25. Do we know why? 188.28.243.4 (talk) 19:47, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Verifying Quotes by Balthus

Can anyone specialising in art literature please verify the following quotations from interviews by Balthus, and perhaps put them in chronological order? They seem very likely to be by Balthus, but there is no original source in easy view to the public.

I refuse to confide and don't like it when people write about art.

One must always draw, draw with the eyes, when one cannot draw with a pencil.

Painting is the passage from the chaos of the emotions to the order of the possible.

I always feel the desire to look for the extraordinary in ordinary things; to suggest, not to impose, to leave always a slight touch of mystery in my paintings.

Painting is a source of endless pleasure, but also of great anguish.

Painting is a language which cannot be replaced by another language. I don't know what to say about what I paint, really.

Painting what I experience, translating what I feel, is like a great liberation. But it is also work, self-examination, consciousness, criticism, struggle.

I will always find even the worst paintings that attempt some kind of representation better than the best invented paintings.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Oliver Mark - Balthus, Rossinière 2000 (1).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:57, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Exhibitions

It is stated in the Exibitions section that :

"Musée d'Art Moderne de la Ville de Paris (1984, traveled to Metropolitan Museum, Kyoto); Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York (1984); and Palazzo Grassi, Venice (2001)."

The original exhibition was not at the MAM-VP but at the Musée National d'Art Moderne, in its Centre national d'art et de culture Georges-Pompidou, aka Centre Beaubourg, exhibition space on the fifth floor. The exhibition took place from November 5th, 1983 to January 23rd, 1984. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yar zadeg (talk • contribs) 10:05, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

The Guitar Girl - Balthus

I am nominating the image of of the painting The Guitar Girl for deletion. 82.11.161.233 (talk) 04:14, 6 January 2024 (UTC)