Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent (devonzuegel.com)
308 points by nsm 73 days ago | hide | past | favorite | 513 comments



Except:

- no country pay like the US. Worked for silicon valley companies remotely, and made twice the money I made in France, while being 3 times cheaper than local competition.

- no country have the volume of hi-level coding gig job offers the US has.

- few countries even have has many interesting projects. If you want to code in Haskell or Lisp in Europe, good luck.

- the USA don't care about your diploma, only what you can do. You will be limited in opportunities and earnings depending of your background in many countries.

- talent attract talent. It's better to work with companies already full of good devs, the colleagues are coolers, the projects are more interesting and the infra will be better. Inertia is in favor of the USA.

So no, it will break no monopoly. If anything, it will make it easier to work FOR the US.


The point isn’t that existing companies in the US or wherever will lose talent, but that the existing companies might retain or even gain talent, and that the workers will reside in locales other than the US. Your points seem to be in favor of the author’s argument that the importance of physically residing in the US will decrease, and that there is an opportunity for other locales/governments to attract remote workers.


The parent's premise is that it will make the US more powerful economically and make its tech companies more dominant. Which is exactly what it will do.

The local tech labor supply will go to work for US corporations, which pay better than most everyone else. That will cement the US hegemony globally in tech (the sole major exception being domestic China, and to a far lesser extent domestic Russia). The US tech juggernaut will buy up the world's talent without having to plant expensive offices everywhere; that will occupy the talent pool and reduce competition to US tech.


It goes both ways: local talent will learn from the biggest companies in the world without having to leave, meaning their know how can be turned to local entities as well.

For the pay, eventually it settles down as more and more companies try to see what they can get away with. US companies won’t be paying boatloads of money eternally (they were already resorting to offshoring to skimp) and local companies will have to align to get people to work for them.


> It goes both ways: local talent will learn from the biggest companies in the world without having to leave, meaning their know how can be turned to local entities as well.

It really doesn't. You end up with a whole segment of engineers that effectively become invisible to the local tech scene, because they are way above the local rates. Local companies are, basically, a waste of time for them.

Also, keep in mind that working for a foreign subsidiary opens up many additional visa to someone who wants to relocate to the US main office. So a "first remote" approach might actually accelerate brain drain in the long run.


Unfortunately I agree with this - I'm currently doing some work in tech across sub-saharan Africa and what we're seeing is that local devs from Cameroon to Kenya to Tunisia (okay not sub-saharan but we happen to have an office there) who are any good are now working on the global marketplace and not available to local companies with rare exceptions (e.g. junior who haven't figured out how to compete globally yet or happen to both have the preference to work in person and don't want to move away).


It's a valid point, but it's not the whole story. When there is too much of a gap between the local scene and the global scene, there is an isolation effect.

But it doesn't mean these engineers live in their remote bubble. There will be a halo effect of showing the way to local talent, we've seen when subcontracting html integration to a remote shop. Once the contract and legal framing was established, it was easier for us to ask their junior member to do administration tasks or other basic data entry tasks.

The other path is for these higher level engineers to move directly to high level positions in local firm. You'll see a junior engineer by EU standards move to a CTO like position in a local company or startup.

All in all, I think the local part still tremendously benefits from having highly competent remote workers.


> But it doesn't mean these engineers live in their remote bubble.

They kinda do. Mentoring, for instance, will happen with employees of the US corp. You'll effectively have the best devs in the foreign country mentoring early career Americans at HQ.

> The other path is for these higher level engineers to move directly to high level positions in local firm. You'll see a junior engineer by EU standards move to a CTO like position in a local company or startup.

Does that actually happens? I mean, I can see that a senior engineer at FAANG matches the level of some local companies CTO, but will these local businesses really give out such a role to an engineer barely in his 30's? That's of course if he hasn't transferred to HQ yet...


> It really doesn't. You end up with a whole segment of engineers that effectively become invisible to the local tech scene, because they are way above the local rates.

If remote salaries will be significantly higher than local ones many governments will be tempted to raise/introduce taxes on foreign income (and in authoritarian ones it is easy to implement). Since cross-border payments in most countries are closely monitored it would be not hard to enforce. Which in turn would make local jobs more attractive in comparison.


> many governments will be tempted to raise/introduce taxes on foreign income [...] Which in turn would make local jobs more attractive in comparison.

That's a double edged sword. Because your top performers are now seeing the local government trying to fleece them and it just makes coming to the US even more attractive.

It would also be a red flag for anyone in the country, to be fair. Instead of looking at what's wrong with the countries' tech ecosystem and fixing it to help local companies innovate and compete, they just rent-seek successful companies.


Argentina did that, their brain drain was INSANE, we had thousands immigrate to Uruguay.

The holdovers jump through all kind of hoops, many involving crypto.


The salary gap does decrease, here in Uruguay companies are paying what would have been thought of as insane just a few years ago (still 50% below US rates, but way way higher any other job), and we're getting thousands of people immigrating from all over Latin America and even Spain.

It does make providing to local companies much less desirable.


> it will make the US more powerful economically and make its tech companies more dominant. Which is exactly what it will do.

Why wouldn't other nations react accordingly? What power does the US have to stop this?

1) Other nations increasingly have a large supply of high-skill talent.

2) Other nations will use capital and subsidies to launch their own tech firms employing their own workers. There are startup accelerators spinning up all over Europe and Asia to capture, retain, and reward domestic talent. They see how the game is played now.

3) Other nations will create more regulations that limit how much US tech companies can participate in their economy and monopolize their citizens as consumers. This is already happening with major international antitrust rulings hitting Google, Apple, and Facebook. This is the nail in the coffin. They will foster and protect their own industry at the expense of the US.

There are many more international tech companies participating at the global stage these days. Atlasssian, JetBrains, Spotify, SoftBank, TSM, ASML, miHoYo... Not to mention all of the Chinese tech companies popping up. Epic Games is 50% owned by Tencent.

This trend will continue. The US only has 300M people, and it's not growing with the same significant postwar tailwinds it once had. It can't keep the wealth and talent monopoly forever. Just look at how much the middle and lower classes are hurting as a symptom of this global rebalancing.

You can also look to other industries. Automotive, aerospace, etc. The US isn't peerless anymore.

Not saying this is good or bad, but it's definitely happening.


The US has the tech companies MASSIVE wealth to stop this. It is all well and good to subsidize local tech companies, but for a majority of junior/senior devs you can't compete with $250K/yr in pay from FAANG companies whose stock won't stop rising and whose name on resume basically sets you up for life (exaggerating, but its not that far from the truth for a non-US and even US developers)

Your third point doesn't make any sense to me as no country will restrict their own citizens from working for a foreign company...earning massively higher salaries than local jobs (more money earned locally is more money spent locally... all metrics that nations care about will go up). Monopolizing your citizen's attention != monopolizing their talent.

Every company you just mentioned added up doesn't even equal or come close to Google's market capitalization (Atlassian, 150B, Spotify, 55B, TSM, 550B, ASML 350B, JetBrains, private, but some say 7B?, Epic Games, 30B) and of note, TSM and ASML draw much of their valuation from hardware than software.


Europe undervalues their engineers - and it seems like it's some sort of cultural thing that favors management. Their tax structure isn't great either, there's a reason zero billion dollar companies were founded in Europe (with the possible exception of Spotify). There's also the cultural pessimism and ambition being 'uncool' - there's a similar thing in Australia/New Zealand (at least I've heard from immigrant friends that moved from there). The 'tallest poppy gets chopped down' basically the opposite of the American idiom 'the squeaky wheel gets the grease'.

Even outside of Europe places like Toronto don't operate with the right investment mindset to actually create wealth: https://alexdanco.com/2021/01/11/why-the-canadian-tech-scene...

American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is.

Devon is basically making this point, but the title is confusing. It's not the US companies that will lose the monopoly on talent, it's the US geography. The US companies will increase their monopoly.


> Europe undervalues their engineers - and it seems like it's some sort of cultural thing that favors management.

It's something that I observed as well.

> American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is.

Don't forget that companies who may have been hesitant to sponsor a visa for an unknown dev might be a lot more willing after having him work for a year or two remotely. And this remote employment also opens the possibility of different visas (L1 comes to mind).

I actually think we might see a larger drain to the US in the medium term. And I'm all in for that, if Europe wants to pay to educate engineers then waste their talent not valuing them, send them here!


I'm from Italy but working in Switzerland for a FAANG company. My theory about the management-heavy way to do things in Europe is the following: in Europe is hard to fire someone unless there is a clear and willingly negligence from his/her part. Engineers' output is somewhat easier to measure than "fluffy" (pardon my lack of better words) tasks performed by management and hence it's hard to prove a manager is doing nothing. Therefore, people tend to gravitate to these positions because they almost certainly guarantee job safety. In my personal experience this happens disproportionately much in countries where worker unions have more sway (like France, Italy, and Germany). Also in my opinion it's not a coincidence that such countries create companies that are bureaucratic behemoths in which there are several different committees to take every small decision. That's how management justify its existence.

This is the main reason that pushed me to go to Switzerland to work for an American company. I feel this is the sweet spot when considering worker rights, salary/purchasing power, interesting work without too much bureaucracy, quality of life, and work-life balance.


I'm unsure about this given I see the same attitude with loads of developers who carry a senior title, have been in the company for many years but barely outperform a junior with a few years of experience.

My more cynical take is management and management-adjacent roles are easier to climb to and more abundant, pay better than the equivalent technical-only title and since managers largely decide what is going on, they'll obviously provide job security for themselves in whatever obscene way possible. At the same time culture views a manager as something noteworthy and of a higher rank already, which loops back and reinforces itself through payment, work and lifestyle, which then loops back to the way culture views it. The same can't be set for most developers who aren't at least partially dabbling into self-employment, entrepreneurship or management themselves, which then further reinforces the manager > developer mindset.


>no country will restrict their own citizens from working for a foreign company

This might surprise you, but some countries manage to achieve something like that. In Austria for example, if you go freelance (self employed) you'll actually end up paying more tax than being a FTE (which has already one of this highest taxes in the EU) while losing all the benefits of being a FTE like PTO, overtime and such.

So yeah, turns out high taxes are a pretty strong deterrent.


Is more tax really being paid or is it simply that freelancers become responsible for paying employer payroll taxes?

In the US both employees and employers pay social security contributions. Going freelance here means you must pay both of these, double the amount an employee would see withheld from their paycheck. But it's not an extra tax. The government is still getting the same amount of money in total.

As a freelancer you need to set your rates appropriately to account for the payroll tax, PTO, etc. that would be paid if you were an FTE.


Something similar in Croatia too. Some years ago they've introduced freelancer laws and pretty much everyone in this industry who was paid by foreign firms was using this.

But relatively recently the government changed their minds and said that if more than 50% of your income comes from a single employer then you're not a freelancer, and these laws don't apply.

So the option is to take a 60%+ tax on your income or find a job with a local company which then works for a foreign company. In latter case, they are nothing more than a middleman taking a smaller (but not much smaller) cut than the government while providing you with next to nothing.

So it doesn't make much time to figure out who lobbied for reversal of those freelancer laws.


> In Austria for example, if you go freelance (self employed) you'll actually end up paying more tax than being a FTE (which has already one of this highest taxes in the EU) while losing all the benefits of being a FTE like PTO, overtime and such.

This is the case everywhere in Europe. I don't know if it's a literal policy meant to discourage this or it's just that freelancers are easy political targets since they tend to be disorganized/disunited.


>This is the case everywhere in Europe.

It definitely isn't. In most of Eastern Europe, freelancers pay peanuts in taxes in order to attract foreign investment. Which is why there tech sectors boomed so much in the last couple of decades to the point devs in Poland or Romania can take home more than their counterparts from richer countries like Austria. Granted, they also get no benefits, but when you take home several times the average national pay, you can actually afford to buy a decent house and maybe fund your own early retirement if you're good at investments.

>I don't know if it's a literal policy meant to discourage this or it's just that freelancers are easy political targets since they tend to be disorganized/disunited.

I think it's a bit of both. Trying to force your local talent who's education was taxpayer funded to only work for and support local business, instead of helping build another nation's champions (remote brain drain). A short sighted move in my opinion which just suppress wages and produces no local champions thanks to shit wages and a lack of opportunities.


In Romania freelancers pay slightly fewer taxes but regular employees pay no income tax if their profile and the company profile match some rather easy to meet conditions.

I don't know about Poland.


Engineers alone don't make a great tech company. Because there is a global engineering shortage but not a global sales, marketing, product management, UX, etc. shortage all of the knowledge on how to do those functions effectively won't spread as quickly (if at all) and will have to be learned locally.


> global sales, marketing, product management, UX, etc. shortage

FAANG have already spent years building up these capacities in Europe. Sales in particular is incredibly local (as one might expect).


> the importance of physically residing in the US will decrease, and that there is an opportunity for other locales/governments to attract remote workers.

COVID really did changed everything, and proved working from home not only works well, but more importantly to CFOs, made it significantly cheaper by literally outsourcing real estate costs to employees.

The past few months have been interesting. I've been contacted by so many recruiters the past year not from my state or even country that it's wild, and all for remote jobs. Compare that to the past few years where the conversation ends abruptly as soon as I mentioned that i would not be relocating.


I'm on the business side of the house, we keep waiting for rent to drop so we can find more space for growth, and it's not dropping because folks in real estate think there will be a rebound. As soon as I try to get into a negotiation, it's almost like they're MORE sticky on the price than they used to be, I guess because everyone is looking for a deal. I don't know what will happen but it makes no sense for me to pay premium for space when we can just hire people remote, and landlords are still not negotiating in a lot of markets (SF and NYC aside) exacerbating the business side of the house want to push hard into remote.


My understanding and it could be wrong is that they can't lower their rates, (and might actually have to increase to compensate for more vacancy) because it will affect their ability to finance the buildings if they have lower rates from whatever math is used to calculate the soundness of the loans. That could be causing the stickiness on price you are seeing (if it's not apocryphal).


My understanding is your understanding is correct. I've also been told that's why NYC tends to be quite unique, the buildings are mostly owned so there is more leeway in finding something as you can go directly to the owner. That said, a startup I consult to is in the basement of a building in Vancouver, I talked to their landlord who owns the building free and clear for 3 generations, same deal, no reason to rent it, just let it sit till the market rebounds. Curious to see what will happen.


Must be the area you're in. In Melbourne, office real estate is practically on life support and they'll happily discount


Melbourne Australia is in the third year of population decline now. I know on top of this population shift that a huge number of the major employers have shifted towards much more work from home arrangements due to the pandemic and due to the the 263 days of lockdowns that were imposed I think many of these changes will last for longer than in places that were less disrupted. That said I still think commercial real estate prices here are artificially high/in a bubble because of the high number of vacancies even if there's already been a pullback in prices. Just structurally speaking the demand side for commercial real estate here has substantially fallen, but I'm not sure the same can be said for other parts of the world right now. I'd be curious to know more about what's happening in other locations as I feel like Melbourne is a bit of an outlier in many regards.


I've been keeping an eye on London, Paris, Berlin, Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal for about 5 months now, really not seeing much movement at all unfortunately. Toronto and Vancouver are particularly holding on strong, stuff will sit empty for 3 months I'll go back and ask the brokers, owners are still not willing to lower the rent a cent, they really think everyone is coming back Q1/2 next year - it's pretty interesting to me.


What type of office space are you looking for your company?


Ah! Yeah you're right... I guess the lockdown has given me a bit of a bias.

Slightly on topic speaking of commercial real estate, I was sad to hear York Butter Factory is in liquidation :(


I can't say I'm entirely surprised, occupancy rates in Melbourne's commercial real estate are exceptionally low at the moment: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/ghost-town-warni...


Meanwhile, I’m hoping that global competition increases tech pay for non-US companies and I can land a remote gig that has some actual benefits like paternal leave.


Yeah, I've heard about a classist element in Europe that might make the path I took unlikely. I dropped out of college, toiled in the service industry for 10 years, got sick of it, went to code school, got a tech job and 6 years later earn $130k. Still no degree. Is it true you can't do that there or is that just a stereotype?


You can, but in France you would have to go freelance, as I did.

There would be no way to charge what I make if I were an employee. In fact, most companies would not give me the level of responsability I had as a junior freelance, even today.

And yet, it's better in IT than in any other field. You already make more money, and the requirements are relaxed compared to other sectors.

I some countries, like the UK (well, brexited now), it can be better. But you'll also most likely be working for a bank.


True, that. You can make good money as a dev in finance here in London. Not as much as in the US, but better than most of Europe.


How much time do you spend looking for contracts vs working for Freelance?


I haven't spend any time looking for contracts for a decade. Once I got the ball rolling, work came to me.

I think the hard part as a freelancer is to start. Once people know about you, there is such a high demand for devs that people will come to you. They have problems to solve, and it's not that easy to find somebody you know will solve them.


Europe is very diverse in customs and practices. In certain European countries credentialism is not really that big of a deal. In some others it's really uptight.


From what I can tell, in Germany at least, the requirement for a lot of dev jobs tends to be "a degree and experience" or "software specific degree and an internship". If you have a science degree of some sort, and a few years of industry experience, then you should be good. Your situation might be tricky.


I started a conversation with a visiting EU PhD and asked about programming languages. In a very good smelling way, he avoided the question. Apparently it is "blue collar" work to do actual programming? This one PhD did zero actual programming, apparently.


> Apparently it is "blue collar" work to do actual programming?

Let’s not build up cultural myths from a passing conversation. Of course there are PhDs in Europe who code and code very well. There are also ones who don’t. Was the PhD even in a Computer Science related field?

And not to offend you, but many people have better things to do than talk about programing languages. Maybe the visiting PhD had more interesting topics on their mind?


transportation modelling, IIR.. he was from Spain


A surprising amount of math/science/engineering types still seem to consider actually programming their models and and such to be the grunt work, sometimes even handed off to someone else. Seems like a terribly inefficient way to work.


Seems like a terribly inefficient way to work.

Yes and no. Learning the intricacies of your particular domain as well as high performance computing is massive task. I used to work as that "someone else", and on the whole I think it was a good way to split the work. They gave me slow python/matlab code that solved a hard problem in a very clever way, and I made run in reasonable amount of time using a reasonable amount of memory etc. I will never know as much about thermodynamics as the scientist, and they don't have the time to learn the best way to make software run really fast.


It's slowly changing, but yeah, coding is not considered a high status job here.

Now, it's better though, it's not considered a low status job anymore :)


No joke. I lived in the US for a while, but I am from Eastern Europe, and so are my parents. Back in high school about a decade ago, I decided that I want to do either an engineering degree or a CS degree. I got a reaction from my parents that was the opposite of what most of my US peers would have expected to get. For context, we have already been living in the US for quite a bit at that point.

Even my parents, who are neither doctors or lawyers themselves, considered engineering/CS to be a grunt and pretty much blue-collar work (not that there is anything wrong with blue collar work at all, but I was not going to pick that fight with my parents at the time when I lived with them). And even now, once they know how much software devs can actually get paid in the US, the only thing that's changed is that they stopped pestering me about it. But I definitely took a note of how when the conversations with their friends or other relatives go, my parents still try to avoid mentioning what I studied or what I do as my career (aside from namedropping the company names, because apparently big US corps carry some weight with those people). All while also letting me know every single time how awesome their friends' son or daughter is, because they are a doctor or a lawyer. /rantover

I cannot understate how good it feels to me in the US in this aspect, because it feels like most people here on average absolutely don't care which path you took and don't even question it. Sure, some are still judgemental, and some of them still assign weight to the outcomes you got. But I would rather get some weight assigned to the outcomes I got, as opposed to the same weight being assigned to some stupid bs like "oh, your degree isn't of the right class of respect, so no matter what you do, you ain't going to be as much of a respected person as a doctor/lawyer". Just the entire concept of "respectable" degrees makes me feel a certain kind of way that I absolutely hate. If you want to talk about degrees based on any measurable metric, you are welcome to. But "respectability" of a degree is not measurable, and is the most snotty bs that is way too commonplace outside of the US. I had some friends from SK (so not even the same continent as EU), and they echoed fairly similar sentiments in regards to the cultural sentiment about engineers/tech workers in their country.

And the thing is, I cannot even really blame my parents, because it isn't just them, it is pretty much what the majority there believes.


I've spent the last few years in Oxford with a bunch of PhDs and they all programmed. Those who didn't program were interested in programming & I taught a couple at a community organised code bootcamp. I'm now living next to Stanford and the same thing happened again. This isn't just traditional STEM either but economics and history students. Definitely anecdotal but I expect this is more common than those who don't program, especially as the social sciences and research-based humanities move towards programming. Hell, History degrees at Oxford now have the option of learning how to use databases to store and query information with SQL.


> Hell, History degrees at Oxford now have the option of learning how to use databases to store and query information with SQL.

We should for real start teaching basics of query languages in high school. Just enough to demystify the subject for when "tech-averse" folks pragmatically need it for their profession

I've suffered emotionally observing people from non-tech areas toiling with what, to us, are rocks and sticks. Folks that would undoubtedly benefit majorly from learning a tool do not do it because they just have never had any exposure to the principles behind them

We can't fix people's interest in tech being low - we can introduce them to simple helpful concepts early on so they are more accepting of proper tools for complex jobs

Did this sound too exclusivist or tech-centric arrogant? I didn't mean to. I'm really interested in why some things like version control aren't used across all industries and I suspect it has to do with fear of command lines and inspection tools


I don't know much about this, but apparently Oxford and Cambridge have a history of taking graduates with humanities degrees (i.e, not anything STEM) and training them in computer science and programming. Other students who end up working for tech companies in the UK come from Imperial College or a school where they were in a STEM discipline.


> community organised code bootcamp

yes! :D


Your example is unlikely in Europe, but the importance of the degree depends on the type of company. For banks or older industrial companies, a degree is mandatory. Contacts/networks also play a part and can compensate weaker degrees.


I've walked a fairly similar path as you did (to an extent, I did get into code and systems as a teenager, but I've got little to no formal engineering education and drifted away from code for a decade) and getting decent opportunities is nearly impossible unless you're in Paris and pretty good at networking. Most of the work available is menial, with little prospects and pays the median salary (which is trash by EU standards, much less US).


> If anything, it will make it easier to work FOR the US.

So that's kind of the point - those remote workers for US companies will do their daily spending, house construction, etc and pay their taxes outside of USA, boosting the economy and creating the demand for non-developer jobs there instead of USA.


Yeah, but that's a bit like trickle down economics. It's literal trickling, it's not a deluge.

In these cases the top jobs will still tend to stay in the home country. So the most successful of these companies will be able to hire more top level folks and most of these will be in the home country.


“a bit like trickle down economics”

It is standard economics. If the value of American citizenship is eroded, and I would argue that it is across a number of fronts, then America as a nation loses value. Pretty simple. Econ 101.


These are all subjective. I worked on Haskell, without a degree, on interesting problems for an NY salary remotely out of my bedroom in Oxford. I have since moved to the Bay Area and am working for an Eastern European country while earning a Bay Area rate.


>I have since moved to the Bay Area and am working for an Eastern European country while earning a Bay Area rate.

If I understood it correctly, you physically live in Bay Area while working remotely for a company located in Eastern Europe, and you are earning Bay Area rates? This seems like the complete inverse of the situation I usually hear of (working for a Bay Area company remotely in a cheaper area and earning Bay Area rates).

Out of pure curiosity, do you mind sharing the name of that Eastern European company? Totally understandable if you aren't willing to do so, but I have a feeling that there is probably literally 1 or 2 companies tops that would be willing to do that, so it isn't really an option for almost anyone. The first two that popped into my mind were Yandex and, to a much lesser degree, VK.


Yandex Labs is a San Francisco company. Technically owned by Yandex, but otherwise not much difference from any other Bay Area company.


Wow, I actually had no idea that Yandex had any presence in the US. Sounds like a pretty interesting setup they got this way, I will have to check it out.


You understand correctly! It's a crypto startup but I don't really want to have my account be to obviously mine. It isn't amazing bay area rates, but it's six figures.


No need to reveal the exact company name, your clarification was more than enough to address my curiosity in regards to the situation. I really appreciate you giving just enough info, without compromising your own privacy, especially since it sounds like it is a small startup.


For me it was just enough information to make me more curious about what type of crypto company. I work for one too, but not on the fun web3 side of things.


Do you mind elaborating on what that is? Looking to learn as much about web 3 as possible. Thanks


What are you looking to learn about? I can get some links together tomorrow and send them over to you :)


More about the defi scene preferably. Would love the links thank you!


Please share with us :)


I work for a company that does market making for crypto exchanges and projects, but I'm mainly doing fullstack webdev for internal apps right now.


Jetbrains?


I'm living in Moscow, Russia and I know for sure that we have so many crypto companies here but still I was not aware that they are ready to pay Bay Area salaries :)


I’m sure you can find something if you look! But most are happy with global hires so you can find one elsewhere and apply anyway, I’ve worked with several fantastic Russian devs :)


For something like Haskell, you can definitely negotiate that kind of thing if you have some experience. Those skills are highly coveted and valued if you know your worth imo.


Isn't that what the article implies? Talent will be more distributed, but working for US companies.


>If you want to code in Haskell or Lisp in Europe, good luck. I can agree with points around salary and diploma, but not on that one.

Scala, Haskell, Ocaml, Clojure, Coq, Idris are much more significant in the EU than in the US. Many Ph.D. contribute to language and ecosystem, and you can easily find exciting projects with them, not only crypto.

Even GHC was developed mainly by the EU and British people. The Swiss academy created Scala. Coq and Ocaml are big in French academy circles.

It's also a problem for me because I'm working from Eastern Europe (I can pay only 5% tax on all income up to 250k euro on remote). I primarily work with US companies, salaries are outstanding, but usually interesting FP-ish things are done in the EU, where wages are lower.

And I am on remote, so there is no profit for me to earn less with better social and government benefits like people in West Europe.


Can I ask how/where you get good remote US jobs? I'm also from Eastern Europe.


facebook is hiring 10,000 developers in the EU to build the Metaverse.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/facebook-plans-hire-10000...

My daughter is looking to go into software engineering and I was explaining to her that most of the high paying jobs are in the US and there's a big brain drain out of Europe (we're Brits). Not to dissuade her, but that she might consider that as an option on graduation. I was speculating why FAANG don't hire more developers in Europe to take advantage of the pay difference, and then the above story broke literally the next day.


Probably mostly censors. Roblox has about 4000 censors, outsourced to low-wage countries.


> Probably mostly censors.

Facebook already have greater than 10k contractors in Europe for content moderation work.

The announcement is specifically about engineering roles (including DS, PM, UX etc).


There's also some very high paying software engineering roles in the UK, such as machine learning engineers. Of course, the salary varies from the north to the south quite a bit.

Nevertheless, you can get 100k just out of uni in an ML role! Especially if it's following a PhD.


>There's also some very high paying software engineering roles in the UK, such as machine learning engineers.

>Nevertheless, you can get 100k just out of uni in an ML role! Especially if it's following a PhD.

I wouldn't call that "very high paying" at all compared to the US ones. $100k is way less than what a non-ML undergrad dev gets at an entry level FAANG position in the US. And yes, even for remote positions (within the US specifically and, to a degree, Canada; felt the need to clarify, because FAANG positions outside of the US/Canada pay much less, despite still being usually noticeably higher than local alternatives), so no need to go the "but living in Bay Area is extremely expensive".

But for an ML role that requires a PhD? $100k in the US for that would be laughable. Not trying to stir anything up or argue, but I do recommend doing a bit more research on the topic, especially if you are trying to help a future college student make a decision on a degree/career path. A good starting point would be checking levels.fyi, which seems to be by far the most accurate resource on tech salaries from my experience, despite sometimes showing a few random datapoints that are a bit off (mostly due to some people not entering their stock grants or annual bonuses properly and not accounting properly for vesting)


100 GBP = 135 USD

Your point still stands though.


They do hire in Europe but pick expensive locales such as Switzerland, London or Dublin. I can't stop wondering why not open shop in Italy or Spain - wages may be much lower with way higher life quality.


We've tried hiring in these locations (Italy and Spain) with some success, but it's pretty tough because the talent pool is so small. At some point, you weigh whether the lower cost of the salary is worth the extra time/effort spent adding headcount. Which is funny because we have no shortage of Italian and Spanish devs applying for our expensive European city offices. I don't know European urban dynamics that well, but it certainly seems to me, off the cuff at least, that Europeans want to live in high COL European cities as much as Americans want to live in high COL American cities.


> We've tried hiring in these locations (Italy and Spain) with some success, but it's pretty tough because the talent pool is so small.

Are you at Facebook? Because local talent doesn't matter as much. It's not like the Dublin or London office relies on local talent. I've had tons of colleagues from Romania move there. And when they get there, there are a ton of folks from India, Ukraine, China, Estonia, whatever, a huge chunk of them freshly arrived from their home countries.

If Facebook would go to Spain and Italy, even in the more expensive cities, salaries would be so huge that they would completely dwarf the higher cost of living compared to the rest of the country. But places like Madrid or Lisbon would still be cheaper than for example, London. And with definitely better weather :-)


The point is high value DBA from those places do not want to get jobs in those places. They want to get jobs in high COL places like London because they are nicer places for young well off engineers to live.


I'd be super shocked if this were the case for, say, Barcelona vs London.

My guess is that the language barrier is the killer. Everybody in IT outside of maybe China and Japan learns English so London is kind of easy mode.


> Europeans want to live in high COL European cities as much as Americans want to live in high COL American cities.

Makes sense. There is a reason that its high COL


>We've tried hiring in these locations (Italy and Spain) with some success, but it's pretty tough because the talent pool is so small.

Is it a question of language skills, technical skills, or both?


maybe because people on those countries are not idiots and they know they will be paid better if they move to northen countries?


Are there a big enough talent pool of highly skilled and experienced developers in Italy or Spain? It’s a chicken and egg problem, you need to go where there’s already a market for these skills.


They could tap into infinite supply of developers from Romania, Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, Russia...

Who would move just for the privilege of living in literally sea side resort.

I also think that some developers from Nordic countries will consider, and the rest of Europeans who would like the opportunity working at FAANG.


I’ve worked for several companies with dev centers in more out of the way places in Europe: Vilnius, Sofia, and Braga (Portugal). There were a number of obstacles in each.

First, these are just not big cities with a lot of people. They don’t have large labor pools or many companies to choose from like London or Paris or Dublin to start with. It immediately limits the number of locals you can hire without relocation.

Second, many of these locations are not as friendly to immigrants. Either they don’t have existing communities or the visa programs they offer are not friendly to non-EU citizens. It is hard to get Indians to move to Bulgaria when they don’t speak the language, there are few other Indians there, and the govt does not provide visa programs that make it easy. Similarly, even though other EU nationals can work in places like Sofia without a visa, few are interested in this. They either want to go to big markets with all the amenities like Berlin, Paris, Dublin, or they want to stay in their home country. Romanians are not very interested in moving to Lithuania. The best candidates we’d find were Lithuanians who had been working in the US or London who wanted to move back to Lithuania for family reasons but work for a Silicon Valley type company.

This problem was amplified for older workers who had kids or wanted to start a family. They want to know it’s a place they can stay for a while.

Third, often times the govt were just not friendly to tech companies. In Portugal, there were many issues around employees working overtime (at all not just for extra pay), having to give one year notice of layoffs. The business viewed the labor laws as a hassle to do business there. They might put up with it in a market where they can hire a lot, but with the above problems, it made the locations even less attractive.


I know a lot of devs that would move to Barcelona in an instant but also know plenty of devs that hate London and don't want to move there despite a FB offer. Never understood why FB from all possibilities picked London - maybe British want to move there, but the rest of EU not.


Because Google picked London, and they were in a phase of poaching from Google. They're still there because of path dependence.

Also because London is the only European city which everyone in the US has definitely heard of ;)


That's pretty big news indeed, but I'll wait until it happens. For now it's just a plan, and I've heard so many plans.


Tons of places use devs in Poland, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Bulgaria, and Serbia for example. Most of the US companies that outsource to Europe mostly just choose to outsource to the cheapest places with good talent.

Office wise though, that would make sense to open up in UK, Spain, Germany, etc.


> the USA don't care about your diploma, only what you can do

That's a total bullshit, unfortunately. Everything else is correct.


Now a days, it's very much true. I've worked for FAANG companies, a number of mid-major sized tech/internet companies, have had a engineering job for 20+ years, been a CTO and co-founded a VC backed company. All without any degree, in fact in the 20+ years in the field I've never once been out of work. Early in my career I was rejected a couple of times for lack of degree but I can't even remember the last time I was asked about a degree. I know a number of other long term successful non-degree engineers also. So unless you have solid data to back that up, I'd agree strongly for it not being bullshit. The only tech field that I can see that argument for is higher level Data Scientists and that's clearly becoming less and less of a requirement also.


That's the point though - in lieu of some outstanding success and track record that makes you an extreme outlier, a degree is pretty much required.


>I've worked for FAANG companies, a number of mid-major sized tech/internet companies, have had a engineering job for 20+ years, been a CTO and co-founded a VC backed company. All without any degree, in fact in the 20+ years in the field I've never once been out of work.

Things are very different now than they were 20, or even 10 years ago. It used to be that people coming into this field did it out of passion and interest in the work, and accordingly the talent pool was fairly small and someone with a bit of knowledge and aptitude could get a shot.

Now it's just seen as a lucrative career like Law or Business, and so CS has become the number one major at many US universities these days. We are facing an absolute glut of new grads. And if you're trying to compete for an entry level job without a degree now, you're pretty much out of luck.


I work in a big tech company and you have to be extraordinary to get hired without a degree as an entry level dev. 10+ years experience and it won't matter so much, no.


That's why you join a small company that doesn't ask for anything, maybe a small web design shop. Then within a year you find some other company, maybe a middle ware company or consulting shop. And after that, since you now have 2-3 years of experience, you aim for the big boys.

Basically a sort of on-the-job-training-degree, just that you get paid for it :-)


I have successfully went through a chain of technical interviews, but wasn't hired to Facebook because HR realized I have no degree. So our experience is really different.


On the topic of diploma - I get the sense this is not exactly true for FAANG


No diploma here - still have recruiters from at least 3 of the 5 messaging me.

Edit: downvoters, care to explain a little? Why would they waste their time on me if they weren't interested in me working there?


Do you / have you ever worked at one?


I am working at one now (kind of, since MSFT doesn't really make it into the abbreviation), and one of the brightest senior engineers on my team had no degree whatsoever, just a high-school diploma (using past tense, because he left for another company a couple of years ago). I also have a bunch of friends who currently work Google (some from college, some former colleagues) and a few at FB, and all of them know at least one coworker without a college degree.

And when our team was recruiting experienced candidates (5-10 years or more), at no point we ever cared about their degree or lack thereof (aside from some specialized research positions that typically require graduate degrees). For entry level though, yeah, if you are in your early 20s without much industry experience, it is gonna be much tougher to get hired without a degree.


It's getting harder. I have a friend who worked at MSFT out of high school >10 years ago, and was told several years in that he could never be promoted beyond his current level without a degree. Decided to take a couple years off to get a degree in something random (theology) and when he applied for his old job, now +BA, was told he needed a CS degree to be qualified for it.


Was your friend in engineering? And what kind of level was your friend shooting for? Because yeah, if you are shooting for a director or a partner level position, you better have a degree. But for a regular senior engineer position? Not at all.

Also, i don't know when your friend tried to get re-hired and at which level. The whole "we don't care as much about degrees anymore" is a fairly recent thing, I would say 5 or so years. And of course, if your friend only worked at MSFT for a few years, then left to do school, and then tried to come back, they would be probably still shooting for a close-to-entry level position, not a senior. And entry-level without a degree or something else to compensate for it is going to be really tough. Normally it is compensated by either years of experience or something else (side projects, major open-source contribs, etc.), hence why I never saw someone without a degree at entry-level, but plenty who are senior engineers.


I've interviewed at Google twice - passed once, declined continuing the process due to not being super interested in the product. I've declined interviewing at Facebook/Amazon. I haven't talked with Netflix nor Apple. I have not worked for one, but have never gotten any indication that the lack of diploma would be a problem. I gather that a decade of professional experience makes the lack of diploma irrelevant.

As best as I can tell the only time it has hurt me is when I tried to emigrate out of the US and was unable to as some countries require a degree to get a work visa, even with a job offer.


My anecdotal data is that I went really far in the process with a FAANG, got a verbal offer, and it was rescinded (never got the official offer). I always suspected it was due to lack of a degree.

And no one explicitly ever asked, but they did ask for a rather detailed work/education history, and I never claimed to have one.

I really suspect that they SAY they don't care if you have a degree or not, but at the end of the day I think they do.


>My anecdotal data is that I went really far in the process with a FAANG, got a verbal offer, and it was rescinded (never got the official offer). I always suspected it was due to lack of a degree.

If your lack of degree was a dealbreaker, they wouldn't go with the interview process to completion. It makes zero sense to waste time and resources on a candidate that you already determined you aren't going to hire. My team had to interview 50+ people just to fill a couple of positions, and every interview is taking away from precious time that could have been spent working on the product. Wasting our time interviewing someone we won't hire due to a lack of degree makes no sense.

Not only it would be wasting our own time, we would also be wasting the candidate's time, and all of it for exactly zero gain. There is no grand conspiracy where FAANG companies interview candidates with no degrees all the way till the end, and then drop them due to the lack of degree, it is just illogical all around.

Basically, if you got an interview, and especially if you got to the onsite rounds, nothing that is on your resume can disqualify you at this point.


I appreciated your comment. I want to believe what you are saying... but at the end of the day none of the people that I interviewed with were the final deciding factor in whether I was offered the role or not. This was decided by a hiring committee. I might be giving away which company this was at this point, I don't know if this is how it's done at other large companies.

The thing is, I was asked to provide certain details after my interview process, like an extremely detailed chronology of my education and work history, explain every single gap greater than 3 weeks, etc. etc.

The fact that this all happened after I rocked my interviews (which was the feedback provided via the recruiter) tells me that yes, it's possible that they wasted everyone's time to interview me and potentially disqualified me on some kind of technicality.

It was an odd experience altogether. I was even invited to spend an afternoon with someone on the team after getting the verbal Ok. Either way, it was interesting experience, but pretty unpleasant through and through. In hindsight, I'm quite glad I didn't get the job, but in principal I didn't like the way the process went.


> I might be giving away which company this was at this point, I don't know if this is how it's done at other large companies.

Yes, you are, it sounds like Google, and I had the same experience with them, except I had a degree.

> I rocked my interviews (which was the feedback provided via the recruiter)

A lot of times, recruiters aren't at liberty to provide truthful and direct feedback. Also, you might have done well overall, but one of the interviewers tanked you. It all depends. You might have gotten a good signal (but not strong on all of them, just "good enough") from all your interviews except one, and on that one you got a strongly negative one. Hiring committee looks at this combination of signals and decides "no". This is really common.

Hiring a bad candidate and having to fire them later is extremely expensive, so the interview process prioritizes decreasing false positives rather than false negatives. Which means that unless they are absolutely certain you are a good fit, it is a pass. But I can pretty much guarantee you that if you got to onsites and then later got declined by the hiring committee, it wasn't your lack of degree that got you passed over.


Thanks for the feedback and context, really appreciate it!


Was it in California and what year was it? It's well known in the valley recruiters from various companies put the kibosh on many offers to prevent talent from moving around. There were some big lawsuits on it.


I would lean towards the position being filled by a better candidate or the team having a hiring freeze. Who can say, though? That's a large waste of everyone's time and the company's money.


Perhaps! I can only speculate since I wasn't given any concrete feedback.


Working at one for over a decade now. I've got no degree. Both people on my team and in adjacent team without degrees. Also many people with super-interesting degrees nothing to do with CS.

So, yes, you can get hired at FAANG & friends without a CS degree.

But: I would suggest to always read that as "absolutely go for it, even if you didn't get a degree", not "skip getting a degree, it doesn't make a difference".


I used to work at Google/DeepMind and don't remember anyone even asking about it during the original interview process. (I did not go to uni)


I have worked for FAANG without a diploma. While it is rare, you can definitely do it if you grind enough leet code :D


I've worked at both Amazon and Microsoft. I'm not even an HS graduate. I worked my way in through contract gigs until I was able to get an FTE role. After the first one, moving to another place was no big deal. I was asked about it by HR only to make sure their records were correct and never heard of it again.


Any tips on getting the first one? How was your algorithms prep?


There are exceptions.

- There are plenty of smaller tech hubs with way higher quality of life like Zurich, Berlin

- Or others that are incredible affordable like Warsow, Bukarest, ..

- The USD is not looking healthy from CHFs perspective. I would have to expect to earn less every month.

- Getting paid from the US makes banking and taxes way more complicated. You can not even open a bank account without signing 3 times that your money does not come from the US.

- US companies have different values/ideas about social security/pension and co. Also work hours or more than 40 hour weeks

- I don't fully understand the diploma thing. You may think it is more important than it actually is in central Europe. It's common (because education is free or cheap), but by far not the only way to get in the Industrie.

My point is when you already live in modern place with high quality of living standards it's unlikely you'd find a US job, remote or not, tempting.


Don't get cocky. In Europe you literally can't get a job paying 200.000€ per year as an individual contributor, except for US companies.

I'd be very happy to be proven wrong and for the respective position to not be a beyond-senior-contributor thing (so maybe 0.0001% of jobs out there).


> Don't get cocky. In Europe you literally can't get a job paying 200.000€ per year as an individual contributor, except for US companies

You can find these jobs in London. And there are plenty of examples of this in Amsterdam as well [1].

But the point is that in Europe you don't need to make as much as you'd have to make in the US to have the same or a higher quality of life.

If maximising your total compensation is your goal, then yeah you'll have to work in the US or for a US based company.

[1] https://techpays.eu/countries/netherlands#


I don't think that's necessarily true in terms of QOL. Some European cities are very expensive to live in when you factor in taxes, like Zurich, or real estate, like London. Other places in the US, especially outside of San Francisco, NYC, Chicago, Seattle, LA, &c. are quite economical to live in if you're making the standard US-scale engineer salary and working remote from somewhere less urban (or let's just say less "sexy" in terms of lifestyle). It really depends on where you're talking about, so I don't think generalizations like this are all that useful. But I do think you're right that if we're talking about maximizing total comp, the US is where engineers are going to gravitate.


> Some European cities are very expensive to live in when you factor in taxes, like Zurich, or real estate, like London.

Yes, but we have generally better public transport in EU so it's easier to live farther away.


Comparable housing in those places is at least as expensive as in similar US cities.

And to have a similar quality of life to the average US FAANG employee you will still need north of 120k € per year in my experience.

Plus in your list half the positions are exactly what I was talking about, higher than senior IC. You need to be incredibly skilled (top 0.5-1%) or incredibly lucky to get them. Though I appreciate that the other half is there :-)


I’d love to hear about those US based companies paying EU based ICs $200k / year and for the respective position to not be a beyond-senior-contributor thing (so maybe 0.0001% of jobs out there).


Switzerland, London, Dublin, Amsterdam, Munich, Luxembourg FAANG.


Without stock appreciation, I don't see that in Dublin.

Like, a friend recently got a FAANG offer for senior IC, which netted out at about 150k total compensation, which is far off from 200k.

You'd be looking at Staff (or years of stock appreciation) to hit 200k TC, which is a lot lower than one would expect in the US.


Anyone can go look at compensation data for Google, Facebook, and Amazon on levels.fyi, filtering on "Ireland", and see that every single data point for senior engineers is 200k+.


Out of 310 rows, 42 are $200k+. Not that many.


To be fair, I was looking at the numbers in Euros (which is the most relevant to me), while I suspect other people are looking in dollars.

It does appear that $200k is achievable in Dublin, Approximately $150k seems a lot more likely though.

Clearly, I need to give up on DS and become a software engineer. I suppose I could get a leetcode subscription and start back reading Knuth again ;)


If you filter all available data points to just those located in Ireland, you get 310.

I was speaking specifically of senior engineers at Google, Facebook, and Amazon (which are the only FAANGs to have meaningful presence in Ireland), because that was the context I was replying to.


At $200k+ for individual contributor? But it is probably effectively 0.0001% of the jobs across the EU zone.


That was my point if you read my comments again.

US companies in Europe pay that much, but there are only a handful of jobs (let's say 0.01% of jobs), and outside of US companies you can't even find that. Outside of US companies you need to be, as I called it "beyond-senior-level-individual-contributor", i.e. a god in your field to reach that. So you have to add 2 more zeroes after the dot, 0.0001%. They're both even rarer and also <<super>> hard to get.


Aren't the things you listed precisely the things that article is saying will change? The point of the article is that countries with favorable time zones for U.S. business hours can implement policies to attract immigrants to come and work remotely for U.S. companies.


> "If you want to code in Haskell or Lisp in Europe, good luck."

Sidebar: I don't want to work with any Engineer for whom the programming language plays any role in their choice of career.

I want to work with engineers that want to build solutions for customer problems, solving complicated technical challenges using the best tool for the job. Sometimes that tool is Haskell or Lisp, or Erlang. Sometimes it isn't.

I also want to work with engineers that recognize that they can do more as part of a team than lone-wolfing everything themselves. That also means that sometimes the best tool for the TEAM is not the best tool for them individually.


> If you want to code in Haskell or Lisp in Europe, good luck.

Uhh... https://trustica.cz/category/tech/racket/


Heck, even Ocaml!

https://www.lexifi.com/


I checked them out and they're unsupringly French. As a point of pride, Ocaml is pretty in universities here. For some reason, the computer scientists here are weirdly obsessed with functionalism and formalism.


It’s not like the USA wants to pay more. If they can get away with paying less for the work, they will.


Right by they do pay more. A lot more


>no country pay like the US. Worked for silicon valley companies remotely, and made twice the money I made in France, while being 3 times cheaper than local competition.

Not a problem for foreign companies that can and do pay "like the US", because they compete globally.

>- no country have the volume of hi-level coding gig job offers the US has.

Well, in that aspect, the US wont compete with each country one by one, but by the volume of hi-level coding gig job offers in all of them combined.

>- few countries even have has many interesting projects. If you want to code in Haskell or Lisp in Europe, good luck.

StandardChartered is a British bank - and one of the main Haskell employers (it's not like they are many). There are lots of others. Eiffel (France), Smalltalk is used by several European companies in different places, and I see a comparable number of companies using Common Lisp in Europe as in the US ehre: https://common-lisp.net/lisp-companies

And, in any case, even in FAANG 99% of programmers don't do Haskell or Lisp, so the point is moot.

>- talent attract talent. It's better to work with companies already full of good devs, the colleagues are coolers, the projects are more interesting and the infra will be better. Inertia is in favor of the USA.

Yeah, inertia the US has :-)

On the other hand, momentum is in favor of Asia and Africa...


>Not a problem for foreign companies that can and do pay "like the US", because they compete globally.

Do they really though? How many non-US companies are paying $150k+ to mid level front end developers? I don't think that exists anywhere else.


Yeah - I'd be surprised. I hear European salaries are at best ~100k maybe ~120k and that's pretty much maxed out a decade in. Day 1 silicon valley devs do better than that.

150k is also out of date for mid-level FAANG total comp today. I hear it's more like 600k and goes up from there.


>150k is also out of date for mid-level FAANG total comp today. I hear it's more like 600k and goes up from there.

FAANG is a whole other ballgame. $150k is intern level pay there. I was just talking average total comp for B and C tier large companies outside the Bay. The kind of role an average self taught dev with 2-3 years experience could expect to land in any major US city.


Ah gotcha - yeah that sounds right to me.


It doesn't exist for the majority of the US either...

https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/computer-programm...


USA is super expensive. Yes you can get a large paycheck, wait until you see house prices.

Also current situation does not inspire confidence in somebody who may be identified as white male.


It's really expensive, yes. But honestly, another significant part of it is that the way of life of some americans is crazy.

I'm considered a spender among my peers, and even I am amazed when I discuss with american friends, watching the money they throw away.

Most of them have huge food budget: they never cook and eat outside all the time. They have so many recurring payments for so many services. They spend tons money to refund a student load for a degree they never finished, or a mortage on a car or credit cards fees. Cigarets, alcohol, weed, then various kinds of meds.

Some of them have several generations of console, one PC, and changed their phone every 2 years for the last decade.

When I visited the USA with my father (he worked for an airline), we always ended the trip with flipping through garbages in nice neighbourhoods. Once we found a printer. Another time we found a tennis racket.

So when they tell me they are having a hard time with money, it's not easy to be compassionate.

I know there are people working 3 jobs, living paycheck to paycheck and eating junk food to survive. But they are not coders in the valley.


House prices where? We got our house for 345k and I earn 100k+ in North Carolina. Not everyone needs to live in California.


And you call that cheap?


In fact I do, it isn’t the 700k or more we expected to pay in California. We could have gone even cheaper if we waited.


A house at about 3.5 the yearly income is cheap, yes. Historically it was quite a bit more.

https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-inco...


House prices are often even higher in Europe, relative to wages. Check prices in London or Paris to see: you get smaller apartments, smaller houses on smaller lots than in US, and you’ll pay larger percentage of your paycheck for them.


I looked into Paris and the 19th looks very reasonably priced and apex civilized to me. (I've walked all over it.) A two bedroom for say €2000-2500/m with easy access to the Metro. Am I wrong? I was surprised when I looked at the prices, maybe my sources are inaccurate. But then I discovered Montpellier :-), half as expensive.

I've lived in Atlanta, Phoenix and SF/MV/Santa Clara, and no, none of those come close to the quality of life for the money. For reference I live in a 2300ft^2 house in the country, and it was great for raising a family, but now I'd rather rejoin civilization. So I'm aware of the tradeoffs.


Average household income in Paris is 36k EUR. 2000-2500 EUR/mo is insanely expensive. For comparison, in Sunnyvale, CA, median rent for 2 bedroom is $3k, but median household income is $130k.

Seriously, if you think housing is expensive relative to incomes in Bay Area, or NYC, it will seem like a bargain compared to London or Paris.


Why would I work for 36k? This discussion is about remote work. I'm not worried about making 3x that.

As I mentioned, I've lived in Mountain View and Santa Clara. Sunnyvale is in the middle. I'm a cyclist and loved to climb up the various two lane grades and over the top to the coast and back. I visited MV and San Jose last spring. And SF. It was much more interesting in the '90s. Now the South Bay is just another dead US suburb.

I wouldn't live there again for $500k/year.

We haven't even discussed why most families move to the suburbs: children. We have done the two commute raising a child in the Bay Area. We evacuated when the school logistics became visible, and in hindsight, rightly so.


Ah ah ah, €2000-2500/m in France is crazy expensive.

In Nice, I would pay 1100€/m for the same thing, and that's also considered an expensive city.

In my current country side town, I pay the ridiculously low price of 300€/m for a 3 bedrooms flat. Now that's the lower end of the spectrum, because it's a very poor deep country side village.

But yeah, some devs start their career at 2400€ a month as a salary :)


I am really glad to hear this. The first time I looked at housing costs in Montpellier I was astounded. I asked some of my EU friends and they said yup. City center is about the same as Nice apparently, and I consider that dirt cheap. It's not Paris, but... I could dig being near the sea again. Try getting anywhere as near the US Pacific coast, hahahaha.


There is nothing reasonable in €2000-2500/m


Imagine being so bad at your chosen career, a career so in demand that there are serious efforts to expand the talent pool to a wider variety of people, that you are afraid that those efforts will cost you your job.


Imagine being so ignorant of history that you think the (tulip hysteria, dotcom boom, condo craze, etc) will continue unabated into the unforeseeable future.


If you want to be located in a place which pays relatively high in Europe, housing prices are adequate. 10-15 years ago it would be possible to have disproportionally large salary in eastern places like Prague, but that's history now.

Even if it still costs less than SF, your paycheck now looks adequate. Covid era raised prices everywhere.


> 10-15 years ago it would be possible to have disproportionally large salary in eastern places like Prague, but that's history now.

It still happens but you need to go further East, like Romania, for example.

But Romania is far more disorganized compared to Czechia, so there are downsides.


It's possible to work remotely in post-covid era, which allows living in nicer, cheaper locales. No longer it is necessary to move where jobs are.


If you have family, this becomes more complex. If your kids are older have already good friends and social circles, such a move becomes supremely selfish


What if you already live in a cheaper, less bubbly area? Or decide to move there early on.

Then staying there and working remotely becomes family friendly, and moving becomes super selfish. Most people assume moving to get a good job, which will lead exactly to the consequences above.


White males are one of the highest paid demographic groups in the US and always have been.


It seems white americans are far behind many asian ethnic groups

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...


That's because US immigration policy selects for immigrants with significant wealth or specialized educations and experience. Our policy specifically selects for high earners and the already wealthy.

You can see this effect clearly from your own source, where Australian Americans and South African Americans both have higher median incomes than almost all Asian American households, as well as white Americans. Same thing goes for Pakistani, Iranian, Lebonese and Austrian Americans compared to other groups in the US.


Yes, I understand that might be a factor. However, this still invalidates the point that whites are the most privileged group. If we take second/third-generation indians, they, on average, would be wealthier than most whites. Does this mean they are more privileged? I think yes


"However, this still invalidates the point that whites are the most privileged group."

No one made that point. And yes, it's true, if you look at certain much smaller demographic groups you can find groups that are somewhat more economically advantaged than white men.


The only alternative explanation of such wealth difference is that these "white males" are objectively better at it. That's why I mentioned privileges


Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: