Terms of Service v2

[Changaco]

This issue is about updating our Terms of Service. I only have one change in mind at the moment, but since we have to notify all users of ToS changes we don't want to do it every week, so this issue is not limited to this one change.

It looks like many projects that rely on donations publish a list of their sponsors to thank them. Strictly speaking one could argue that they're not really donations since the donor is getting something in return (publicity), but that's open to interpretation. I think we should consider that thanking donors is okay, and explicitly allow this practice in our terms, thus allowing projects who thank their sponsors to use Liberapay.

[Changaco]

French translation of the above

Ce ticket est dédié à la mise à jour de nos condition d'utilisation. Je n'ai qu'un seul changement à l'esprit pour le moment, mais comme on doit notifier tous les utilisateurs des changements de conditions il vaut mieux les grouper, donc si vous avez d'autres propositions n'hésitez pas.

Il semblerait que de nombreux projets qui se financent par des dons publient une liste de leurs sponsors pour les remercier. On peut arguer que dans ce cas là les paiements ne sont pas strictement des dons puisque le sponsor reçoit quelque chose en échange (de la publicité), mais c'est un débat délicat à trancher. Je pense que l'on devrait considérer que remercier les donateurs n'est pas un problème, et explicitement autoriser cette pratique dans nos conditions d'utilisation, ce qui permettra aux projets qui veulent remercier publiquement leurs sponsors d'utiliser Liberapay.

[Changaco]

FTR, @Zatalyz stated in IRC yesterday that she supports this change.

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Zatalyz a dit hier sur IRC qu'elle soutient ce changement.

[Zatalyz]

Proposition de mention à ajouter (à affiner ?) :

"L'utilisateur s'engage à ne pas utiliser l'image, le nom et les logos de Liberapay dans toute activité qui contreviendrais à la loi française. En cas de manquement à cette règle, l'utilisateur pourra voir son compte fermé sans pouvoir prétendre au paiement de la somme récoltée, et ses donateurs remboursés de la somme qu'ils auront versés."

Cela nous éviteras des soucis avec les choses qui sont vraiment problématiques. Le point important reste bien le rappel à la loi française ; nous n'avons pas à juger, par ailleurs, de la moralité des sites qui font usage de nos services, mais associer notre nom à celui de causes hors-la-loi peut sans doute s'assimiler à une forme de complicité (d'autant qu'ils se financent). S'en tenir à la loi permet, pour moi, de rester dans la neutralité par ailleurs.

Ça n'empêchera pas un néo-nazi de demander des sous via son site de passionné d'orchidées (par exemple), et dans ce cas, nous n'aurons pas de raison de le virer de nos services, et ça ne mettra pas non plus des services comme Mangopay dans une situation délicate. Mais au moins, nous n’apparaîtrons pas sur les sites type "appel à la haine", et ça vaut mieux, non ?

[MartinDelille]

Ca me va bien.

[Changaco]

Another change to consider: it should be explicitly forbidden to donate to oneself. It's possible to do that by setting up two accounts, which is both deceptive and a money laundering risk.

[mattbk]

Another change to consider: it should be explicitly forbidden to donate to oneself.

Agree with this.

Also. although it looks technically possible to donate to a team one is on, but doesn't seem to work (I assume payday is ignoring those transfers). I know this isn't allowed ("Teams are for peer-to-peer donations, they can't be used by a legal entity to distribute donations to its members."), but the UI should prevent this in the first place (rather than causing confusion by appearing to set a donation and then it not working on payday).

[mattbk]

Proposition de mention à ajouter (à affiner ?) :

👍

[Changaco]

Another thing to consider is whether granting patrons "early access" should be allowed. Copy of liberapay/liberapay.com#688 (comment):

Patreon permits OAuth logins to be used to unlock backer-only content on external sites. Most often, from what I've seen, this amounts to early access to things the general public will get to see later. My specific use case is exactly that – offering early access to web comic content for folks who back or otherwise donate, as a "thank you" rather than a purchase. I'd love to integrate Liberapay the same way, so that creators can enjoy this functionality without needing Patreon at all (or possibly even alongside it).

I don't think we can allow that without having to deal with taxes, because a payment that gives early access to something isn't really a donation.

[brunoais]

Suggestion for ToS change:

I propose changing ToS to not forbid the promise of advantages or access to material that would not be available if the user doesn't provide monetary support.

However, the user promoted on the liberapay page (supportee) may provide their own promises for access or use on their own material. However, whatever promises written or otherwise stated are based on trust between the supporter/donator and the supportee.

In other words:

liberapay does not forbid deals attached to a support made on liberapay, however, liberapay donation process is completely outside and unrelated to whatever deals are done between the one who provides the donation and the one receiving the donation.
If a deal/promise/suggestion of action is not followed through, liberapay has nothing to do with it and both parties accept that before the donation is done.
On liberapay's side, it's considered that whatever action is done by the donated party is done on their own accord as a "thank you" (E.g. for an artist, a, potentially personalized, "thank you" card) and not as a paywalled transaction.

Would that work?

Would this kind of intention and point of view be acceptable for a ToS change of liberapay? If not, anything preventing it? Maybe a modified version of my suggestion?

[mattbk]

@brunoais does that mesh with liberapay/liberapay.com#839?

[Changaco]

@brunoais My main concern regarding rewards is taxation. I'm particularly concerned with taxes like the EU's VAT which in some cases are supposed to be collected by the platform facilitating the payment rather than by the actual recipient of the money. Patreon collects VAT on all payments coming from inside the EU, and if we allowed rewards, we might have to start doing the same, at least for payments which aren't pure donations.

[brunoais]

@brunoais does that mesh with liberapay/liberapay.com#839?

Sorry I forgot to answer you @mattbk. I took a while to read and then I forgot.
I think they do not interfere. They are different things

@Changaco: I wish I knew the law to know how that works. Seems like more changes are in the works too which I don't know how it would affect.
In my proposal, liberapay wouldn't be managing payments to a provider. It would be a passive provider. However, the law is to complex for me so I don't know. If this is really incompatible with EU law, then never mind. Law is law.