diff --git a/Makefile b/Makefile
index 0dbe29a56907..2f46ad259567 100644
--- a/Makefile
+++ b/Makefile
@@ -399,6 +399,15 @@ test-e2e-cron:
 smoke:
 	go test -count 1 --tags e2e -p 1 -run SmokeSuite ./test/e2e
 
+.PHONY: destress
+destress: cli
+	kubectl delete wf -l stress
+
+.PHONY: stress
+stress: destress cli
+	kubectl apply -f test/e2e/stress/many-massive-workflows.yaml
+	argo submit --from workflowtemplates/many-massive-workflows -p x=$(X) -p y=$(Y)
+
 # clean
 
 .PHONY: clean
diff --git a/manifests/quick-start-minimal.yaml b/manifests/quick-start-minimal.yaml
index 12e4ad9b2511..8c80b9be3b0a 100644
--- a/manifests/quick-start-minimal.yaml
+++ b/manifests/quick-start-minimal.yaml
@@ -329,6 +329,13 @@ rules:
   verbs:
   - get
   - watch
+- apiGroups:
+  - argoproj.io
+  resources:
+  - workflows
+  verbs:
+  - create
+  - get
 ---
 apiVersion: rbac.authorization.k8s.io/v1
 kind: ClusterRole
diff --git a/manifests/quick-start-mysql.yaml b/manifests/quick-start-mysql.yaml
index cc403199bdee..12054d70f515 100644
--- a/manifests/quick-start-mysql.yaml
+++ b/manifests/quick-start-mysql.yaml
@@ -329,6 +329,13 @@ rules:
   verbs:
   - get
   - watch
+- apiGroups:
+  - argoproj.io
+  resources:
+  - workflows
+  verbs:
+  - create
+  - get
 ---
 apiVersion: rbac.authorization.k8s.io/v1
 kind: ClusterRole
diff --git a/manifests/quick-start-postgres.yaml b/manifests/quick-start-postgres.yaml
index f99116e87dd4..409a1c990029 100644
--- a/manifests/quick-start-postgres.yaml
+++ b/manifests/quick-start-postgres.yaml
@@ -329,6 +329,13 @@ rules:
   verbs:
   - get
   - watch
+- apiGroups:
+  - argoproj.io
+  resources:
+  - workflows
+  verbs:
+  - create
+  - get
 ---
 apiVersion: rbac.authorization.k8s.io/v1
 kind: ClusterRole
diff --git a/manifests/quick-start/base/workflow-role.yaml b/manifests/quick-start/base/workflow-role.yaml
index 8d0170977685..15850395218b 100644
--- a/manifests/quick-start/base/workflow-role.yaml
+++ b/manifests/quick-start/base/workflow-role.yaml
@@ -21,4 +21,13 @@ rules:
       - pods/log
     verbs:
       - get
-      - watch
\ No newline at end of file
+      - watch
+  # This allows one workflow to create another.
+  # Not needed for the majority of use cases.
+  - apiGroups:
+      - argoproj.io
+    resources:
+      - workflows
+    verbs:
+      - create
+      - get
\ No newline at end of file
diff --git a/test/e2e/cli_test.go b/test/e2e/cli_test.go
index 42c93fe9acda..41a326293548 100644
--- a/test/e2e/cli_test.go
+++ b/test/e2e/cli_test.go
@@ -588,14 +588,6 @@ func (s *CLISuite) TestWorkflowLint() {
 				}
 			})
 	})
-
-	// All files in this directory are Workflows, expect success
-	s.Run("AllWorkflows", func() {
-		s.Given().
-			RunCli([]string{"lint", "stress"}, func(t *testing.T, output string, err error) {
-				assert.NoError(t, err)
-			})
-	})
 }
 
 func (s *CLIWithServerSuite) TestWorkflowRetry() {
diff --git a/test/e2e/stress/many-massive-workflows.yaml b/test/e2e/stress/many-massive-workflows.yaml
new file mode 100644
index 000000000000..367c59ae97ba
--- /dev/null
+++ b/test/e2e/stress/many-massive-workflows.yaml
@@ -0,0 +1,62 @@
+apiVersion: argoproj.io/v1alpha1
+kind: WorkflowTemplate
+metadata:
+  name: many-massive-workflows
+  labels:
+    stress: "true"
+spec:
+  entrypoint: main
+  podGC:
+    strategy: OnPodCompletion
+  arguments:
+    parameters:
+      - name: "x"
+        value: 1
+      - name: "y"
+        value: 1
+  workflowMetadata:
+    labels:
+      stress: "true"
+  templates:
+    - name: main
+      dag:
+        tasks:
+          - name: create-workflow
+            template: create-workflow
+            arguments:
+              parameters:
+                - name: i
+                  value: "{{item}}"
+            withSequence:
+              count: "{{workflow.parameters.x}}"
+    - name: create-workflow
+      inputs:
+        parameters:
+          - name: i
+      resource:
+        action: create
+        setOwnerReference: true
+        manifest: |
+          apiVersion: argoproj.io/v1alpha1
+          kind: Workflow
+          metadata:
+            name: "large-workflow-{{workflow.parameters.x}}x{{workflow.parameters.y}}-{{inputs.parameters.i}}"
+            labels:
+              stress: "true"
+          spec:
+            entrypoint: main
+            podGC:
+              strategy: OnPodCompletion
+            ttlStrategy:
+              secondsAfterCompletion: 60
+            templates:
+              - name: main
+                dag:
+                  tasks:
+                    - name: create-pod
+                      template: create-pod
+                      withSequence:
+                        count: "{{workflow.parameters.y}}"
+              - name: create-pod
+                container:
+                  image: argoproj/argosay:v2
diff --git a/test/e2e/stress/massive-workflow.yaml b/test/e2e/stress/massive-workflow.yaml
deleted file mode 100644
index e1886e7ea421..000000000000
--- a/test/e2e/stress/massive-workflow.yaml
+++ /dev/null
@@ -1,56 +0,0 @@
-# massive workflows
-#  DAGs with 9 tasks a piece
-apiVersion: argoproj.io/v1alpha1
-kind: Workflow
-metadata:
-  name: massive-workflow
-spec:
-  entrypoint: main
-  arguments:
-    parameters:
-      - name: limit
-        value: 1000
-
-  podGC:
-    strategy: OnPodCompletion
-
-  templates:
-    - name: main
-      steps:
-        - - name: dag
-            template: dag
-            withSequence:
-              count: "{{workflow.parameters.limit}}"
-    - name: dag
-      dag:
-        tasks:
-          - name: A
-            template: whalesay
-          - name: B
-            template: whalesay
-            dependencies: [A]
-          - name: C
-            template: whalesay
-            dependencies: [A]
-          - name: D
-            template: whalesay
-            dependencies: [B, C]
-          - name: E
-            template: whalesay
-            dependencies: [B, C]
-          - name: F
-            template: whalesay
-            dependencies: [B, C]
-          - name: G
-            template: whalesay
-            dependencies: [D, E, F]
-          - name: H
-            template: whalesay
-            dependencies: [D, E, F]
-          - name: I
-            template: whalesay
-            dependencies: [D, E, F]
-    - name: whalesay
-      container:
-        image: argoproj/argosay:v2
-        args: [sleep, 1s]