Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cricket

Irish cricket clubs: notability

Good day. I note from the guidance on the notability of clubs, teams and venues, that "It is necessary to take an individual view about each country in terms of its own grassroots structure," but that such a view has only be taken thus far in relation to Great Britain and Australia. In relation to Ireland, the de facto position that has evolved is that clubs competing in the top division of each of the three provincial leagues (i.e. the top level of club cricket) are, by definition, notable. This seems reasonable, as clubs at this level invariably employ professionals, and first-class and Test cricketers have emerged through these leagues.

My specific query relates to Cork County Cricket Club, an article about which was previously deleted (see here). The article was deleted on the ground that the club was not playing at the highest level of club cricket in Ireland (namely Division 1), but rather in Division 2. My request arises now because the club has now been promoted to Division 1, and thus the reason for the previous deletion is no longer valid. There are articles for all the other clubs in the top division. I have consulted the deleting administrator, who has directed me here.

Grateful for a consensus view on my proposal to create an article on Cork County. Mooretwin (talk) 15:52, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

My view is you should go ahead: not a problem. Johnlp (talk) 00:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yep, it now passes the notability threshold, so be bold and re-create it. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 14:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't seem a problem, of course we now also have the Inter-Provincial Championship, which I've heard will be granted first-class status in 2015, not sure if this is true though? PinchHittingLeggy (talk) 17:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm a little concerned that, if clubs are frequently promoted and relegated between the top two divisions, articles will keep on being created, removed and then created again, which wouldn't make a lot of sense. Can I suggest that, if a club reaches the first division, that should make it notable indefinitely thereafter? JH (talk page) 20:10, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that is sensible. In effect the notability (for Ireland at least) is that the club "plays or has played" at the top level of provincial club cricket. (This is similar to the criteria for football clubs at WP:FOOTY, which applies to a club that plays or has played in its national cup competition.) Mooretwin (talk) 12:55, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

To note - I've now created the stub at Cork County Cricket Club. Would there be any objection if I updated the project page to reflect the apparent consensus here as regards notability of Irish cricket clubs, i.e. clubs who play or have played in the top division of the relevant provincial league are considered notable? Mooretwin (talk) 13:02, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Go for it. Harrias ^talk 13:10, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

As there appears to be consensus and agreement, I've added the criterion for Irish clubs. Regards Mooretwin (talk) 12:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Notability Criteria

According to Wikipedia:CRIC notability criteria, a player who plays FC or LA cricket is notable, but a player who appears in the U-19 World Cup is not notable. But that kind of a player will be notable as per Wikipedia:GNG. So there's a dispute and confusion. According to media and television coverage, an U-19 WC player is more popular than an FC or LA player because an U-19 WC player gets the coverage both in online and offline media. So do you people think that the guidelines in Wikipedia:CRIC should be modified and the notability for the U-19 WC players be included in that? Itz arka (talk) 06:21, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Not necessary. If a particular U-19 player or team passes GNG then the project's criteria are irrelevant. GNG always overrides any project specific criteria; or in other words a project's criteria can never be used to exclude a subject that passes GNG because project criteria can never be stricter than GNG. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:44, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

You're assuming that a player that appears at an U-19 World Cup meets GNG, but I don't think that's automatic. I'm sure some would, but equally sure that many would not. My understanding is that subject-specific notability criteria are supposed to comprise of criteria where one could safely assume a subject would meet GNG. Don't think many U-19 WC players would meet GNG, although some certainly would. So no, I don't think notability criteria should be changed. -- Shudde ^talk 06:53, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually after the last U-19 WC, there was a dispute over the existence of the article Aiden Markram in Wikipedia because at that time he hadn't played any FC or LA cricket but was the captain of South African U-19 team and led his team to win the world cup. Also he scored back to back hundreds in that tournament which was a record. A voting was done after that article was nominated for deletion, but most voters voted in favour of keeping the article. So it stayed. Although he played FC and LA cricket later, but if such happens again with other players, then will it be proper idea to have a voting every time? Itz arka (talk) 13:28, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

My view is that Aiden Markram was an exception in that because of the extensive coverage of what he did as a U-19 cricketer he just about qualified under GNG. I see no reason to have a vote every time: in fact, I can think of no other U-19 cricketer that has had such coverage. The WP:CRIN line is clear-cut: FC or List A is above that line; U-19 is below it. GNG can confer notability through the extent of coverage whether or not a player qualifies under CRIN: I argued in the Markram vote that his notability rested (at that stage) on GNG and I considered then (and now) that he did not at that point qualify under CRIN. A. E. J. Collins is in my view a similar case. Johnlp (talk) 15:18, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Collins is the classic case in point because of his remarkable achievement in a schools match which received wide publicity at the time and is mentioned in numerous books. The definition of notability we use in CRIN was agreed several years ago after a prolonged discussion and, though it has been subject to minor amendments subsequently, there has always been a clear consensus that anyone taking part in major cricket is notable while others such as writers, scorers, administrators and minor players must have their notability explained and verified. I really don't think an under-19 tournament can be classified as major cricket. Jack | ^{talk page} 15:38, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:GNG is key. If they initially fail to meet WP:NCRIC, then each article should be looked at to see if they pass WP:GNG. If in doubt, make the project aware of the discussion/article to help decide its future. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 14:00, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of Collins (who died on 11 November 1914; lest we forget) would it be possible for someone to undelete File:AEJ Collins.jpg and File:Aejcollins.jpg, and put them back in the article? They must be PD by virtue of age, surely? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.251.205 (talk) 11:42, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

List of Centuries

A few months ago, all the cricketers' articles used to have their list of centuries tabulated in them. but for last few months, it's been seen that some of those have been removed suddenly. I was inactive for last few months, that's why I don't know whether any discussion has gone on regarding that. List of centuries has been removed from articles of Virat Kohli, Chris Gayle and some others. Please share your opinions on this. Itz arka (talk) 16:06, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I assume it's because they've been spun out into their own articles, such as List of international cricket centuries by Virat Kohli, so it's not needed in the main article. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 13:55, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Bangladesh T20I lists

I found this category and it's mainly full of articles for Bangladesh against every country they've played a T20I against. Does one entry make a list? Anyone have any objections if they were merged into one all encompassing article? Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 10:13, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

No problem until the merged single article doesn't become too much long to read. Itz arka (talk) 12:13, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Do we really need lists of matches? We're not Cricinfo... PinchHittingLeggy (talk) 12:55, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Do we really need any cricket biography article? We're not Cricinfo... Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 13:14, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

List of Gloucestershire CCC players

Unless any have slipped through the net, I believe we now have an article (a stub at least) for everyone who has played in a first-class match for Gloucestershire since the club was formed c.1870. Jack | ^{talk page} 16:51, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Phillip Hughes

I have updated the Phillip Hughes BLP re his being taken to hospital in "critical condition" after being "knocked out" by a bouncer at the SCG today. [1] May need a few watchers to prevent him being prematurely declared dead by trolls.--220 of ^Borg 04:58, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

The incident is disturbing to say the least and I'm sure all genuine CRIC members are hoping for good news about Phil Hughes. I don't think players duck as much now as in the past because generally the ball striking the helmet does no harm, but one thing that must come out of this is an inquiry into overall helmet safety, especially the back of the helmet. As for the article, I've added it to my watchlist and I agree several of us should do the same. Jack | ^{talk page} 18:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks @BlackJack:. A few dopes misguided IP editors did declare Hughes dead in the next <2.5 hours after I updated his page, see [2] and [3]. Though the first one was pretty quickly removed by another IP editor! [4], and the next mostly by another new editor. [5] I also notified on the Australian Wikipedians' notice board, and the page was then semi-protected. The point about the helmet, I removed some details about that because the media reports seem to vary about exactly where it hit. Some said at the back as you note, beneath the helmet; others said the side IIRC. The event was also on the Sean Abbott and Bouncer (cricket) pages, so they may need to be watched particularly for premature 'death' announcements! (Just saw it was removed from Abbott's page about 10.5 hours ago. [6]) I must admit I'm actually not much into cricket. :-| --220 of ^Borg 23:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Might be a nice tribute from WP:CRIC if a competent editor could get his up to GA or better. Just a thought! PinchHittingLeggy (talk) 18:19, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Shocked. I knew a guy who knew Phil. TheAirplaneGuy (talk) 05:36, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm wondering if someone living in a cricket-playing nation could take a picture of those bats that people leave out as a tribute? It could be used to illustrate the article I guess... OrangeKnight (talk) 16:28, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

And now former Israel captain Hillel Awasker.[7] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.229.251 (talk) 20:33, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Bloody hell! Cited report says he died today after being struck by a ball when officiating (which must mean umpiring) but doesn't say if he was at the stumps or at square leg. Has anyone got any other sources? Jack | ^{talk page} 21:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

This adds some more. Jack | ^{talk page} 21:52, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Andrew nixon has written this article on yet another sad day for the cricket world. The-Pope (talk) 07:46, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

This has been the darkest week in cricket that I have known in my 24 years. Today (30th Nov) would have been Phil Hughes' 26th birthday, so happy birthday Little Don. PinchHittingLeggy (talk) 10:23, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Nepal national cricket team

Can people keep an eye on this (and possibly related pages such as player pages) regarding the first-class status of two matches played by Nepal on their recent tour of Sri Lanka. Nepali media reported that the two three-day matches were first-class, and I've had an e-mail from the Asian Cricket Council stating that the matches were first-class, but both Cricinfo and CricketArchive list them as not being first-class. I say we go with the latter two as they're our main sources. Andrew nixon (talk) 09:32, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually this raises an interesting point as your sources are presumably reliable and could be cited as verification that the matches were first-class. I'm always conerned when CricInfo and CricketArchive are taken to be definitive sources because they are both flawed in many respects. CA and CI should not be seen as the arbiters of which matches are or are not first-class if another reliable source disagrees. There are numerous cases where CA or CI go against the views of another source and indeed where they do not record certain matches at all. So, I disagree. I believe we should accept this tour as first-class, subject to the alternative sources being reliable, but perhaps note the views of CA and CI per whichever site policy it is that says we must present a balance. Can I just say, though, that I accept the views of CA and CI on status if there are no other sources that differ. Thanks. Jack | ^{talk page} 11:43, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Does the Asian Cricket Council have the right to determine what is and what isn't a first-class match or is that the province of the International Cricket Council? CI and CA would presumably (eventually) follow an official ruling in this area and don't determine these things themselves. But they are the main secondary sources that I suppose we ought to take our lead from. Johnlp (talk) 13:28, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

As the match took place in Sri Lanka, the status is the decision of Cricket Sri Lanka. I only e-mailed the ACC when I got no reply from Cricket Sri Lanka. Andrew nixon (talk) 13:46, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Further to this - I've received an e-mail from the ACC who have confirmed that Cricket Sri Lanka declined the request to grant the matches first-class status. Andrew nixon (talk) 15:22, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. That seems clear enough. Not first-class then... at least until someone changes their mind. Johnlp (talk) 15:56, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. That's good enough. No doubt a change of mind will happen one day. Jack | ^{talk page} 16:53, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Similarly, Kerry Packer always dreamed of having the WSC Super Tests granted first-class status, and while Cricket Australia was firmly opposed, there was talk that Packer would provide the West Indies Cricket Board (where some Super Tests were played) an offer they couldn't refuse to grant the matches there first-class status (at the least; I'm sure Packer's ultimate aim was for the matches to be granted Test status). With his passing and his heir Jamie showing little interest in cricket, I suppose the matter rests, although it would be nice to think that at some point in the future cricket administrators will recognise that, for example David Hookes's 116 against a rampart West Indian fast bowling attack, should be considered at least as important as his century against a woefully undermanned Sri Lanka a few years later. --Roisterer (talk) 02:53, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Category for discussion

Category:Cricketers who died while playing has been nominated for renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Jack | ^{talk page} 11:10, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Category has been reverted to its former name. We've just dealt with a crass piece of insensitivity, IMO. Jack | ^{talk page} 22:14, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Parent categories and sub-categories

Please take a look at this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 13:16, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Mitchell Johnson (cricketer) to Mitchell Johnson?

I think it'd be best to move "Mitchell Johnson (cricketer)" to "Mitchell Johnson". The other Mitchell Johnsons are largely unknown personalities ("Mitchell Johnson (painter)" has less than 10 views per day, "Mitchell Johnson (murderer)" is a redirect) A separate disambig page "Mitchell Johnson (disambiguation)" can be created to list the other Mitchell Johnsons. 117.216.147.162 (talk) 12:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Stanley Park

The usage of Stanley Park is under discussion, see Talk:Stanley Park (disambiguation) ツStacey (talk) 20:16, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Today's featured article/December 27, 2014

I need some help here ... Bencherlite wrote it and I'm trying to copyedit it, but cricket banter is beyond me. "When it was Bradman's turns to bat"? (Whenever it was Bradman's turn to bat?) What does "the Australian pace attack ... dismissed England within the first day for just 52" mean? "bowled second ball"? "fixtures"? - Dank (push to talk) 04:31, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

"When it was Bradman's turns to bat" looks like a typo. I think it should be "When it was Bradman's turn to bat". Regarding your other queries, like baseball cricket has a lot of jargon of its own, which those who have ever followed the game are familiar with but which can be confusing to outsiders. In a lot of cases, it is hard to avoid using these terms without being extremely verbose, but some such as bowled have their own Wikipedia articles to which the first usage in the article could be linked. "the Australian pace attack ... dismissed England within the first day for just 52" - the fast bowlers in the Australian team took all the England team's ten wickets within the first day of the match, England managing a total of only 52 runs. "bowled second ball" - the second ball that the batsman received hit his wicket so he was out. "fixture" is just a synonym for "match", in common use for all sports in at least the UK. I think it's probably unrealistic to expect someone wholly unfamiliar with cricket to totally understand such an article, any more than I would expect someone totally unfamiliar with baseball to fully understand the Wikipedia article on Babe Ruth or someone who knew nothing of atomic physics to wholly understand an article on quantum mechanics. But someone wholly unfamiliar with cricket is surely unlikely to want to read the article anyway. The article on cricket itself is the one that needs to make every effort to explain all its terms to those totally unfamiliar with the game JH (talk page) 08:43, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Understood that people won't understand, but your wording makes it more likely people will make the effort to understand, I think. Thanks much. - Dank (push to talk) 12:45, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

One more thing ... we'll probably get people changing "an innings" to "an inning" on Main Page day, no matter what we do. It's not just that many readers won't know that "innings" is singular in meaning, it's that even if they know that, the "an" will still sound wrong. Is there any other word that would work, such as "inning"? - Dank (push to talk) 13:04, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

"Inning" is completely wrong in cricket; "an innings" is the only correct term here. Bencherlite^Talk 13:13, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah, that's a shame (but helpful, I have to know this stuff cold now). Divided by a common language and all that. Is everything else okay now? - Dank (push to talk) 13:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Brian may well know a bit of cricket-related stuff, otherwise there are plenty of people who do. I've made a couple of minor tweaks but I think it looks good. Mind you, I've been a cricket fan since I was a nipper, so I'm not the best person to tell whether it is appropriately worded for a non-expert. (The reverse of the situation that would arise when I wrote American football or ice hockey blurbs!) Bencherlite^Talk 13:30, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the tweaks. I want the stuff to sound completely natural to you guys. I've been interested in sports (off and on) since I put myself through college tutoring the athletic teams, and some weeks I read more BrEng than AmEng ... but I never got around to reading British sports pages, and I'm paying the price for that now. I'll run sports stuff by Brian, and I'll keep coming back here for cricket questions. - Dank (push to talk) 14:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

One thought inspired by the above discussion: the article should probably have a "use British English" template at the start. It probably won't stop people trying to be helpful and "correcting" "innings" to "inning", but it might make it a little less likely. JH (talk page) 18:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Added. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:59, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Dilscoop/Marillier shot/Paddle sweep

This may have been brought up before (several times) but I'm still wondering: Why do we have Marillier shot and Dilscoop? The former even has the latter's name in it's first few lines? Merge? S.G.^(GH) _ping! 08:59, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. I've never heard it called the Marillier shot (here in the UK), so a redirect from that name to "Dilscoop" would seem to be the best solution, with the Dilscoop article to include the info on how Marillier was the first to play it. JH (talk page) 10:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I would have Paddle scoop as the main article, and include the Marillier shot and Dilscoop as variations of it, but that's just my preference, as I think "paddle scoop" is the most descriptive title, and gives a better idea of what sort of shots they are. Just my tuppenny worth. Harrias ^talk 16:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I would agree with Harrias on that, paddle scoop seems to the most sensible, neutral term compared to dilscoop, and far more prevalent than marillier shot. S.G.^(GH) _ping! 16:12, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

2014 ACC Championship and ACC Championship at AfD

Hi. I've nominated both articles for deletion. Please see the discussion here. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 10:44, 7 December 2014 (UTC)