Talk:National Radical Camp

Krzyzowiec's Removal Of Jewish Sources

Krzyzowiec removed a valid source with the comment "We can't include informations from Jewish organizations". Why in the world would this be the case? Is everything that he does not like or meet his POV an invalid source? ABANumber (talk) 19:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

What vandalism ? Stop making POV and everything will be ok. I don't care about some organization/s from Israel who trying to show Poland and patriotic organizations as Nazi. No, we don't make Holocaust in Poland.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 02:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

actually it is your removal of a valid source that points to a POV problem. Why is the source quoted a problem? You might not as you state "care about some organization/s from Israel" but you never even mentioned what issue you found in the ref or material that you deleted. I guess you have issues facing some facts, and find it easier to just delete things that you don't find matches your POV. Instead research the issue and clearly state what the issue is. ABANumber (talk) 05:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Piotrus for restoring the references —Preceding unsigned comment added by ABANumber (talk • contribs) 01:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Roman salute isn't a nazi salute - Decision of Polish Court.

And what now ?

https://www.nacjonalista.pl/wiadomosci.php?id=3832

Polish Court in Strzelce Opolskie described Roman Salute as a patriotic acting which has nothing common to do with the Nazi's Salute. Read the link, I told you that I don't care about opinion of Israeli Organizations as long as they are not in Poland and they make propaganda. Polish law can make a law not israeli nor american organizations.

This is exactly what ONR, NOP members do - Roman salute, this is what Nazis do - Hitler salute. top making the propaganda about Poland.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 20:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Logo of ONR was a Falanga, not Chrobry Sword. Chrory sword was a symbol of National Democracy! Chrobry sword: https://www.nacjonalista.org/images/newsy/19976210664683decebab0d.jpg Crux16

Roman salute was not nazi salut until 1941. After 1941, IT IS. 77.11.38.141 (talk) 10:48, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Fascism??

Why is ONR considered to be fascist organization.It is NATIONAL RADICALIST organization, not fascist!Stop repeating left winged propaganda! StrumykNR (talk) 13:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Radical nationalism with swastika is facism. 77.11.38.141 (talk) 10:58, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

National Radicalism is NOT fascism! To call national radicalism this way and equate it with Nazism is as wise as taking democratic socialism, calling it communism and equating it with Stalinism.

A. We go with what RS say. B. Facism is not Nazism, NAzism is a form of fascism (both Mussolini's Italy and Franco's Spain were fascist, they were not NAzi).Slatersteven (talk) 10:30, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Some "facts" are not exactly facts...

Lilek404 (talk) 18:50, 19 February 2013 (UTC) Hello. "Wikipedia is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a neutral point of view. Your recent edit to National Radical Camp seemed less than neutral to me"

1. The party favoured aggressive eliminationist action against the Poland's minorities
2. ONR openly encouraged anti-Jewish pogroms, and became main force in the organization of anti-Jewish violence
3. Some, on the other hand, actively helped Nazis
4. Some authors do not consider it as a fascist political movement, whilst others suggest its ideology had fascist elements or even consider it as a 'nazified' movement.

For first and second You have added refers to books about fascism in general, not about polish national movement in 1919-1939, which was very specific. As I can see, mentions about this movement do not refer to any books, declarations or reports from this time in Poland. In fact, Aristotle Kallis author of "Genocide and Fascism; The Eliminationist Drive in Fascist Europe" refers mainly to other author Jerzy Holzer (additionally, to his book from 1977 and every kid in Poland knows that historic books from time of PRL should always be doubted ;)). Much more useful would be "Krew i honor. Działalność bojówkarska ONR w Warszawie w latach 1934-1939" of Miłosz Sosnowski, which describes properly agressive activity of Radical National Camp, taking into account whole historic context. In fact, in Poland before 1939 there was no Jew pogroms... all political and ethnic groups fought with each other on streets and universities. Especially on universities. But never to death... Third point does not add any objective or academic fact. So-called szmalcowniks were divers betrayers from random groups, random families, their crimes were never justified by polish official parties or groups like ONR. National Radical Camp was anti-nazi. How did it come that You haven't read about it, since it was written in many texts of ONR members? Or maybe You did, but then why don't You refer to them? And why on earth have You considered refer to Jan Mosdorf's book "Wczoraj i dziś" not neutral? It is there when he says:

We [Polish nationalists] are not fascists, nor Hitlerites, for we are a native Polish movement, independent of foreign views. Additionally, we do not see ourselves as fascists or Nazis due to the many weaknesses, and even sins, these movements carry. These are not examples we would want to follow.- Jan Mosdorf "Wczoraj i Jutro", 1938

I haven't even added my opinion... but a simple, actual clarification of suggestions that You served as facts. On the other hand, how on earth anti-socialist and anti-totalitarian party would get 'nazified'? in 3 months of its existence? Have You noticed that You are talking about organisation formed in Poland - whose mortal enemy for 1000 years have been invariably... Germany? ONR never identified with Nazis. ONR never declared collaboration with Nazis. Nazis killed ONR members, as You have written Yourself. Also deletion of my mention about sanation can't be explained by being "less than neutral". Opposition of ONR to Piłsudki's policy was a very important element of their activity! Much more important than anti-semitic opinions. By the way, if You claim that some of ONR members had seen Jews as main threat to Poland, why don't You quote? Who is "some"? Because again, objective historic sources (like words of ONR members themselves) call Hitler and Nazis the main threat. Why haven't You included it in the article?

I'm sorry that I have edited this article about "ONR presumed as Jews killers", basing on books treating actually about Radical National Camp as it really was, not as it "was considered by 2 authors that aren't even talking about this topic".

So, other books to propose:

• "Krew i honor" Miłosz Sosnowski ISBN:978-83-926091-9-3
• "Polskie korporacje akademickie w latach 1918-1939. Struktury, myśl polityczna, działalność" dr Patryk Tomaszewski ISBN 978-83-928698-3-2
• "Jan Mosdorf. Filozof, ideolog, polityk" Mateusz Kotas ISBN: 978-83-60048-37-5
• "Od ONR-u do PAX-u" Zygmunt Przetakiewicz ISBN: 978-83-925284-5-6

Biographies, articles, quotes, reports... very little of "POV".

False information

"although it only had a few members"

It's not in the given source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.168.69.225 (talk) 07:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Ambiguity (or perhaps a POV ax-to-grind?)

I quote the following excerpt from the text of the article:

Largely based on university campuses, it followed a policy of anti-Semitism and although it only had a few members[6] from this basis launched attacks on Jewish students and businesses.[7] Left-wing activists were also as part of this violent activity.[1]

I am questioning the meaning of the last sentence: does it mean that left-wing activists were also attacked by the Falanga, or that the Left-wing activists also took part in attacking Jewish students and businesses? I am guessing it is the former, not the latter, but since I do not have access to the source cited (I tried Google & Amazon; no luck at finding page 523!), I have no way of determining this. I believe the sentence should be reworded to eliminate this ambiguity, or else removed altogether (especially if it is intending to state that Left-wing activists attacked Jews too, because this has no place in the flow of the article, which is supposed to be about the National Radical Camp Falanga. It's tantamount to having an article about cheese, describing how it tastes, and then saying "Ice cream tastes creamy too!". It sounds like whoever inserted that is trying to downplay the severity of what the Falanga did by spreading the blame, or at the very least, taking any and every opportunity to malign Leftists). Shanoman (talk) 00:17, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Leftists were engaged in numerous street brawls with Falanga students. This is a well-known and uncontroversial fact. The sentence should be reworded at least. - Darwinek (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Untitled

This "stub" is worthless. There are no nazis in ONR, I know this people, they hate nazis! The founder of ONR, Jan Mosdorf was killed in Auschwitz-Birkenau. If you say that this people are nazis, you simply no nothing about Poland and are history. prof. Siekierski —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.24.175.97 (talk) 22:11, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Again all sources are ONLY from Jewish Institute. ONR members can't be Nazi because their ancestors fought nazis in organziations such as NSZ or ZWZ (many ONR members fought in these organizations). Modern ONR is not a succesor of pre-war organization (Court Law). I will put POV because MORDOR will anyway do whatever he want so.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 04:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Look pal, there is no WP:JEWISHSOURCES policy here, because, you now, Wiki is not Der Sturmer, Stormfront.org or nacjonalista.pl. We go by WP:RS. M0RD00R (talk) 08:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The Stephen Roth Institute, Jewish.org. Plz, highly POV. One point of view is against the rules. This is not your play ground pal.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 15:14, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

You seem to miss the point, realiably sourced statements are not against the rules per WP:RS; WP:FRINGE views on the other hand should not be represented at all. M0RD00R (talk) 15:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Now is NPOV. Why won't u do like that in every article ?

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 22:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

POV

The National Radical Camp (Polish: Obóz Narodowo Radykalny, ONR) is a Polish nationalist youth Neo-Nazi movement.

How come ONR is a neo-nazi movement? ONR was created in '30s and recreated in 1993. ONR members fought during the war against Nazis. ONR's political and ideological platform is Endecja - pre war Polish nationalistic thought where many ONR members were killed by the Nazis for example Jan Mosdorf who helped Jews in concentration camp. ONR don't do any 'neo-nazi' related actions because they hate Nazis for what they did in Poland from '39 to '45. --DumnyPolak (talk) 01:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

don't tell lies nazi. why you listen to 88, make "rome greetings" on your meting and use fascistic emblems? you will be wiped out from poland, nazi scum — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.43.1.43 (talk) 01:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Recent edits

The recent changes to this article by User:Kaskusia, [1], violate Wikipedia policies on reliable sources (WP:RS) as well as WP:NPOV. Primary sources such as the organization's website or its facebook page should not be used in this article.

Please do not restore this material and these sources again.Volunteer Marek 00:50, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I have today reverted the lead to the state it was in before. Independent secondary sources are preferred over the organisation's own website, per WP:RS. -- Dianna (talk) 16:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

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Merge

I hereby propose merging this article with National Radical Camp (1934) and National Radical Camp Falanga. -Chumchum7 (talk) 19:06, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose I oppose the merge proposal as both ONR movements - the interwar movement and the comtemporary group are uncomparable. It's comparing apples to oranges. Both ONRs should have own articles. No need to mix them up. - Darwinek (talk) 10:41, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Reply Thank you for explaining your rationale. Mine remains the same, though I think per e.g. Irish Republican Army, which has had at least six incarnations, we need at least an overview article covering the three or four versions of the ONR. We can state our thinking at the RFC noticeboard to work at consensus.-Chumchum7 (talk) 08:20, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

• Support Merge, I agree the circumstances and years are quite different, but a wiki article can reflect that. All three pages National Radical Camp (1934), National Radical Camp (1993) and National_Radical_Camp_Falanga would benefit from combined search and contributions. In the future if articles become too long, they can be separated, or a summary style article such as Irish Republican Army could be created. For now, merging is pragmatic. Shushugah (talk) 18:11, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

NPOV tag

I inserted the NPOV tag to the article after recent edits by User:Neutrality, who removed relevant sources from the article. Particularly troubling is the rewriting of the section on the pre-war ONR. The paragraph clearly stated that some historians consider the 1930s ONR a fascist movement, some not and some call it a "nazified" entity. After "Neutrality's" edits, only the "nazified" part stayed. I don't see a reason to omit the referenced opinion by well-respected scholar, historian Prof. Andrzej Friszke, just for the reason of "we need something newer than 1989 book". Historians with the highest academic level in Poland are omitted, while The Guardian journalists are being cited freely. That hardly creates a neutral piece of WP article. - Darwinek (talk) 22:41, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Do other authors have the same view as Friszke? My concern is WP:WEIGHT here. Neutrality^talk 23:09, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

And just for the record — the citation to The Guardian that I inserted replaced citations to the group’s own website and to “Teen Vogue” — I think it’s hard to credibly argue that that’s not an improvement. Neutrality^talk 23:14, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't know, Teen Vogue does good work these days. Weird as that sounds. I mean I remain Mr WP:NOTNEWS but yeah... Simonm223 (talk) 15:35, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

NRC

Is there any evidence Polish courts said the modern NRC are not fascist. If so we should mention it.Slatersteven (talk) 15:57, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

It's iffy. Poland a few years ago released a raft of legislation aimed at obfuscating its ties to the Third Reich during WWII, including making it a crime to say Poland collaborated with the nazis. This has been part of a general swing toward right-wing extremism within the country. We should be careful with WP:DUE and WP:NPOV with regard to official Polish sources on this topic. Simonm223 (talk) 16:19, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

No sure its Undue to mention the fact they have been (legally) declared to be non fascist (after all there are BLP issues, and this would be a legal ruling). But we would need a source saying this was the case.Slatersteven (talk) 16:25, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

A prosecutor withdrawing a charge from a hostile case is not the same thing as an official declaration of "not fascist" nor is adherence to an ideology something it's up to courts to decide. Thus my concerns regarding WP:UNDUE - it might be due to mention the incident in the body. But it's not sufficient to say in Wiki voice that these particular quacking birds aren't ducks. Simonm223 (talk) 16:27, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

And the reason why the handbook on far-right groups that mentioned them was pulled from Polish authorities was due to a complaint by this charmer - an MP who happens to be a member of an openly fascist Polish youth organization. So typically, the fascists don't like being called such and will push the court to obfuscate as soon as they have the power to. Simonm223 (talk) 16:30, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I was not suggesting we should, I was just saying we should mention this (if true) however I am not sure that a case being dropped outweighs other sources. Not saying something is not the same as saying that something is not true.Slatersteven (talk) 16:32, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, well you know fascists: give 'em an inch, get Charleston. They aren't interested in neutrality, nor in reliability. Just in what they can manipulate people into treating as such. Simonm223 (talk) 16:39, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Irrelevant, I am not here to fight fascism (that is what Spain is for), but to inform readers.Slatersteven (talk) 16:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

You're an insufferable little snowflake, Simonboy. Take your anti-truth pantifa crusading elsewhere. 2A02:A313:823D:4E00:894B:9484:595B:D40 (talk) 16:05, 21 December 2019 (UTC)